Revival of Middle Class Black Posters

Parents Forum
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<p>For some reason the previous thread is marked "closed" What does that mean?</p>

<p>New question
About to embark on "college tour" trip with S. Visiting a good range of small, medium and large colleges (all in Northeast). S is completely not interested in any questions of diversity, etc. and says "that is your generation, not mine". I remember colleges days when small Black population in my college had, let's call them "challenges."</p>

<p>Is it really "my generation"? Should the percentage of AA kids really not matter (the schools we are visiting range from 3% to 8%). Any body else face this issue? Does it really not matter?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>It matters but it may not make a difference to your child. One of my kids said it didn't matter-- until they were one of the few black kids in an area of the country with few blacks. My kid lasted a year-- got tired of always having to represent. What I found is that sometimes, the white kids don't think of them. We attended an all-white church and my kids were excluded. The kids didn't mean to be racist; it's just that when they thought of people just like them, they didn't think of my kids. </p>

<p>At the same time, my kids prefer not to be in schools where the races are divided. I think they would prefer to be one of the few blacks than a black kid in a school where kids stick to their own.</p>

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<p>My daughter's friend was visiting her over Christmas break. He goes to University of Maryland and had a black roommate for the first semester. He is a really friendly young man , but his roomate made it clear he wanted nothing to do with him because he " just doesn't like white people ". I hear that they are not rooming together this semester.
I was a little shocked that the roommate said this so bluntly..</p>

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<p>This is a good question to raise. The two replies already posted show some of the complications in finding an answer. I keep forgetting that not everyone looks like my "biracial" son :) and really have no idea how onlookers categorize his "race." (I've heard a lot of wild guesses over the years, and so has my wife.) I guess I figure that acceptance and willingness to get along in the whole campus community count for more than percentages of the "same" kind of people. This surely must be an issue to explore during campus visits, but perhaps today things are different from the 1970s in many places.</p>

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<p>Neither S wanted to go to an HBCU because they wanted to go to a place with more racial diversity.</p>

<p>Older S, 24, otherwise didn't pay any attention to the racial diversity.</p>

<p>Younger S, 19, did pay attention to racial diversity. He wanted all kinds of diversity, and has always had friends of all races. He now attends a college where only 5% of the student body is black. He continues to have friends of all races, and is happy.</p>

<p>I think, however, that black females are more likely to be concerned about the racial ratio because it's not as easy for them to date outside of their race as it is for black males. Due to the shortage of black males, it's hard enough for black females to date within their race.</p>

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<p>My daughter had a roommate her freshman year that came the Bronx..she is Puerto Rican and my daughter is white. They became fast friends and next yr will share an apartment along with her current roomate.
It would never occur to her to consciously choose a roomate that was just like her</p>

<p>Her friend went to a school in NC ( High Point, I believe ) and had the same issue with suitemates that were not happy sharing with a white girl from NJ.
Even though she tried to befriend them and invite them to various activities and events, they were unwilling to comply.
One might think it would be the other way around, but it was not.</p>

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<p>That's the kind of question where the answers will be as varied as the number of individuals reponding. In my opinion it definitely matters, albeit the reasons why may be somewhat different than in my generation. I also think current students, of many races, often confuse the notion of whether it "should" matter with whether it "does" matter.</p>

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<p>In the area where our kids grew up, they had little exposure to diversity.
Yet , they were not raised in a atmosphere of any sort of racism either at home or in their school environment. It wasn't until high school that they went to school with any minority students. sheltered as they were, it didn't seem to cloud their judgement , or lack of .</p>

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<p>my biggest question was always do people of different races and economic backgrounds interact or are the blacks/ hispanics/ asians all in a clique. i always asked black students this question. however, one thing i found was that many of the black people at the top lacs i visited/applied to were so used to be around only white people at their private and boarding schools they didn't know any different. and to be honest, being one of four black people in my class, i wouldn't be too shocked about a lack of diversity either. on the other hand, i found that the black students i talked to that were from predominantly black schools or even integrated schools tended to stay in a clique that included only black students. i was told by one girl that she just didn't trust white people, yet she was a school that is probably one the most homogeneous schools in the country. i don't know i guess it's complicated. no one complained of racism though except if you count the "you only got in because of AA" comment. i only heard of that once though.</p>

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<p>I think the "cliques" are inescapable in most cases, but even so, I think there's still a lot to be learned. My kids were never in the cliques, but managed to move in and out of such circles to the extent of really becoming cognizant of the various dynamics at play. </p>

<p>Even in places where there are elements of self segregation or clustering, I think it's important for students to be exposed to those situations.</p>

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<p>I mentioned this on another thread and was roundly lambasted for daring to do so, but the daughter of someone I know just decided to leave her southern LAC after one semester because of racism she encountered. She is Latina by birth, but adopted by a white family (in northern NE) as a baby. She apparently heard many remarks of a kind that she had not encountered before, directed at her as well as at other non-white students. She apparently feels that this was a kind of endemic-to-the-region kind of racism. I'm not saying that she is correct in her estimation, simply reporting her feelings. Certainly there are adults here that display the same attitudes. I gather that she had not encountered it in her peers before.</p>

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<p>" however, one thing i found was that many of the black people at the top lacs i visited/applied to were so used to be around only white people at their private and boarding schools they didn't know any different. and to be honest, being one of four black people in my class, i wouldn't be too shocked about a lack of diversity either. "</p>

<p>Interestingly, things were similar at the top colleges back when I went to college. A major reason why many black students hung out together was because many had grown up and gone to schools in areas where we were very much in the minority. College -- including top colleges where blacks were a very small proportion of the student body --- was for many of us the first opportunity to be around "many" black students.</p>

<p>For instance, I integrated the 1,500-student high school, middle school and elementary school in the Upstate NY town where I lived. When I entered h.s., I was the school's first black student. When I graduated, there were 4 more, one of whom was my brother.</p>

<p>"I mentioned this on another thread and was roundly lambasted for daring to do so, but the daughter of someone I know just decided to leave her southern LAC after one semester because of racism she encountered."</p>

<p>That kind of unfortunate experience can happen anywhere. I know a Cuban-American woman from Miami who says that one of the most painful experiences in her life was when she went to a high school debate tournament that was hosted by Harvard. An adult participant who didn't realize the student was Hispanic (the student is white, with green eyes and red hair) made very disparaging remarks about Cubans.</p>

<p>Having lived in the Northeast, New England, Midwest, West and South, I've encountered racism (as well as really good people) all over this country.</p>

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<p>I don't know that all areas of the country are the same. In some areas of the country, for example, there are plenty of blacks. In other areas, there aren't any. So sometimes a kid can unknowingly step into a vacuum where they truly are one of the only black people a lot of students know. </p>

<p>I also think that some of the kids on this forum are mixed-race and that has its own issues. A kid who is mixed race may feel particularly torn if a school is polarized, depending on how he/ she was raised. They may feel a little lost in a school with strong back traditions because they don't know what Jack and Jill is and they don't want to choose between a white and a black greek group. For them, it may be easier to be at a school with a smaller black population because, in the absence of such organizations, they may feel less pressure.</p>

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<p>There is a generational divide on this issue. I think it was Super Mom I Aint who posted a link on the "closed" thread (Tokenadult; do you know what happened there? BTW, I will now view your posts differently knowing you have a biracial kid. I guess thats prejudice!) to some intriguing study from Duke I think, that looked at comfort level of Black students among other Black students and among the majority as a function of how old they where when "exposed" to the majority culture. I'm looking for it.</p>

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<p>Echoing Flvadad and 2college - - racial diversity is important, but more important to some than to other black students, often for different reasons. (Also, Flvadad - - you hit the nail on the head w/ "doesn't" vs "shouldn't.")</p>

<p>I agree that girls are more likely to seek a diverse campus than boys. Dating is certainly a factor (way easier for boys to date cross-racially; black-male/white-female couples long pre-dated and signif outnumber the black-female/white-male couples). But sports play a role too, not only providing an oppty for males of different races to socialize together as members of the same peer group, but also confering status on team members (a very big deal at my brother's alma mater - Notre Dame).</p>

<p>I would also suggest that the URM cliquishness cited in earlier posts is not all one way. As 2College noted in post #2, the White kids at church didn't intend to be exclusive or racist - - they just didn't think of the black kids. A friend of mine who is bi-racial (black/Asian) had a similar experience w/ an Asian "friend" of hers. The Asian friend was recounting some incident, explaining that she was "the only Asian in the room and none of my friends were present." My bi-racial friend burst into tears stating, "I was there. I'm Asian and I thought I was your friend."</p>

<p>Similarly, when I was in college, one student asked why all the black students sat together. I responded "we're not sitting together any more than the White students are." And in fact, our "black" table tended to be the intergrated table because there were two or three White friends who routinely joined us for dinner. </p>

<p>One area where I noticed considerable segregation on campus - - Greek life. Even on predom White campuses the frats and sororities are almost exclusively White (even though there are no black frats drawing the urm students). This was one of the reasons my older D refused to consider any southern schools. Younger D, for whom diversity is more of an issue, is happy to consider southern schools, but only those w/ large (9%+) populations.</p>

<p>Finally, I agree w/ N'starmom that one can encounter racism pretty much anywhere. There are, however, differences (1) in degrees and (2) official response (check out threads comparing Smith College's response to "blackface" incident earlier this year to other schools'responses to similar incidents).</p>

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<p>"Similarly, when I was in college, one student asked why all the black students sat together. I responded "we're not sitting together any more than the White students are." And in fact, our "black" table tended to be the intergrated table because there were two or three White friends who routinely joined us for dinner."</p>

<p>Yes, there has been some research that indicates that black kids on mainstream campuses are have more friends who aren't their race, and also tend to be in more organizations in which they're the minority than this is true for white kids.</p>

<p>People in general simply don't notice that on college campuses, the white kids tend to sit together and many choose to socialize together via joining Greek organizations that are exclusively white.</p>

<p>A couple of years ago, I was at a meeting at Harvard, my alma mater, and afterward met with some black students in one of the dining halls. I imagine that our all black table may have stood out to an onlooker. However, most of the students at other tables were with people of their own race. I also noticed that the students at my table were frequently sought out by nonblack friends and acquaintances seeking to talk to them about other activities the black students were involved in.</p>

<p>That was interesting to me as was the fact that the nonblack students clearly felt comfortable approaching our table, and the black students didn't feel the need to apologizing for having some kind of relationship with students who aren't black. Back in the old days when I was in college, campuses were more polarized than they are now. I think that's because there was so much hostility directed toward black students on mainstream colleges back then. For instance, I can remember reading in the Harvard Crimson by an alum who was ranting that "semiliterate coloreds" were being admitted.</p>

<p>I imagine that even more polarization occurred on the many campuses that were forced to integrate because of federal mandate.</p>

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<p>At college in the 70s, as a white student, I remember being very surprised and uncomfortable with the degree of self segregation. My high school had fewer than 10 black students, and there was no "black table" in the lunchroom or anything like that. Two or three of the black students were casual at-school friends of mine. (Of course, I'm sure the black students had struggles that I knew nothing about. Just because everything looks nice on the surface doesn't mean that everything is hunk-dory.) At college, it was markedly different. Although we had only three "society" houses and no sororities, one of the three society houses was for black students only. Any white student who naively sat at a "black" table in the dining hall was pointedly ignored. And so forth. According to some of the black students I knew, there was quite intense pressure from the black student community to avoid socializing with whites, and to maintain a separatist stance. One very witty black student I knew called it Nouveau Racism (akin to Nouveau Riche). Many, if not most, of the black students came from middle and upper-middle class backgrounds and integrated suburban schools where they had been in the distinct minority. They were in the uncomfortable position of not being "black enough" according to some, and so were in the process of redefining themselves in the context of the political movements of the day.</p>

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<p>Whoo-weee!! Major props to Triguena for opening us up for business again and Shrinkrap for giving me a "heads-up!" (long deep sigh of pleasure) -- it's good to be back.</p>

<p>Now. Re: the current debate on minority fit and fashion. Turns out other minds have been hard at work on the same question. Found a prof out at UCBerkeley who's been hard at work finding answers to lots of our questions. For what it's worth, here's her site w/an overview of the sorts of issues she's been mulling, Department</a> of Sociology, University of California Berkeley</p>

<p>and here's a link to paper previously posted: <a href="http://www.sociology.columbia.edu/pdf-files/moore04.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.sociology.columbia.edu/pdf-files/moore04.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>In the above, the author takes a look at relationships among/between blacks on an ivy league campus, and concludes that socioeconomic status and prior life experiences have more to do w/comfort level than ethnicity. </p>

<p>Personally, I'm intrigued. We worked so hard to get our kids ready for a "diverse" global community. Now, many have assimilated to the point that they shun the groups and institutions (Black Students Assoc) that gave some of us our hope, grounding, and opportunity. I wonder -- WILL they fare better? ARE they more prepared? Or have I set my girls up for a delayed nightmare reality where the glass slipper is shattered, the glass ceiling remains unbroken, and Prince Charming is MIA!</p>

<p>Re: biracial kids -- that's another topic I wrestle with. In terms of identity crises, my daughters (who attend school with several biracial children, as well as minority adoptees of majority parents), often lament that biracial kids have it easier. No one calls them an "oreo" because they literally ARE mixed. Black kids, however, who dance to the beats of their own drummers, are often reviled as "sell-outs." Worse even, is the fate of the "black" kid who may have varied ancestry back a generation or two. No departure from the party line is allowed. Woe to the black descendent of an Irishman who wears green on St. Paddy's Day! (unless they live in Boston - where I think it may be a law! ;-) )</p>

<p>So which is worse? Mixed? Mixed-Up? Does it matter? <em>sigh</em> I'm just praying my kid meets some nice kids of whatEVER heredity who will accept her for who she is.</p>

<p>p.s. I was pleasantly surprised recently, to find that I was being "sought" on the internet by a classmate from my old boarding school days. Upon our (telephone) reunion, after the initial enthusing, she surprised me by unloading a boatload of pent-up adolescent angst. Seems that we experienced our school days quite differently. She recounted feelings of terror, isolation, and immense depression as a blond haired, blue-eyed "minority" at our Caribbean Boarding school. Her ordeal was intensified by virtue of being a hated "American" (black americans were "cool"). She remembers hanging out with the small group of whites at school, with whom she did not necessarily have much in common. They were English or Canadian, and more accepted. She remembers being excluded from many social events and weekends. Apparently, I was kind to her, and she remembered. She remembered for Thirty years(!). I hope I gave no indication that despite her providing a well-aged photo, I had no recollection of our friendship. Sadly, she has not recovered from her shocking encounter w/life as a minority.</p>

<p>The above just agrees with other posters who have noted that segregation is not necessarily intentional, and goes both ways.</p>

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<p>I hope it's okay if I stop by the black table for a bit. ;)</p>

<p>Technically speaking aren't many (most?) African Americans in this country bi-racial? I realize your experiences may be different if one parent clearly isn't African American, but most of the time out in the real world people don't know what your parents look like. Are kids in school really paying so much attention to what the parents look like? Don't you just get judged by the color of your skin? (Or not - most of the time I hope.)</p>

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<p>I know it is not even close to being the same thing, but my youngest daughter ( who is 50% Swedish ) would like nothing more than to look like everyone else she goes to school with. In her eyes, she is ugly because she is so fair. She has very light colored skin, eyebrows, lashes and hair. I know that she gets picked on a little from some boys that call her an albino, mostly because of their age... sometimes when she was a baby, adults would ask me if she was albino..really she isn't THAT fair, but I thought it was a little rude and funny at the same time. I would just answer them back that her eyes would have to be pink to make her albino..
On the other hand, when she goes to Sweden, she looks like everyone there and kids stare at her when they hear her speak English so well :)</p>