Rice fails to equal williams and Carleton on demonstrated need

Paying for College
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<p>Hi Shelldemeo.</p>

<p>BTW, my DS, now almost 25, was a naturally shy kid too, and was instantly drawn to the Residential college system as well. He really blossomed there, was very active in clubs, activities and even school politics (speak out about a policy and you get put on a committee, LOL). He spent two summers in Houston doing internships with big, well known companies (one was an oil company, one a multinational conglomorate.) He had several job offers after school, and chose a small one that was involved in green, alternative energy, sustainability type stuff. It is not in Texas. It unfortunately became a victim of the economy about a year ago, so he is now working for another company, at the division’s corporate headquarters, doing compliance and design. He is active in Rice Alumni stuff too. </p>

<p>I can’t tell you that the Rice education is worth the price differential you are facing. Thats a tough call. But it is definitely worth asking for a reconsideration, especially if its possible they didnt have the same FAFSA info the other schools did. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Is your son interested in technology ventures? Entrepreneurship opportunities? Have him read about the Rice Alliance [Rice</a> Alliance - About Us](<a href=“http://www.alliance.rice.edu/alliance/About_Us.asp?SnID=1817598085]Rice”>http://www.alliance.rice.edu/alliance/About_Us.asp?SnID=1817598085) My s was involved itn this-- really cool opportunities.</p>

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<p>S wants out-of-state for college. The one school he would consider, though, is Rice. I get the attraction. Here’s hoping Rice either realizes a mistake or moves to “match” Carleton and Williams. If not …</p>

<p>Both Carleton and Williams have engineering 3-2 plans wherein the student studies math, physics, chemistry, or computer science for three years, then transfers to a school that offers engineering for two years. At the end of five years, they get (typically) a B.A. in the field studied at the originating school and a B.S. in engineering at the transfer school. Both have 3-2 agreements with Columbia; Carleton also has an agreement with Wash U in St. Louis. Going from a B.A. in one of those disciplines to an M.S. in engineering is also done relatively frequently.</p>

<p>Finally, how badly does he want to attend Rice? Is ROTC a possibility?</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>

Actually, I’d heard that very few actually do the 3-2 programs. When older s (the one who went to Rice) looked into this (apologies, I forget which schools) thats what he was told. Thats why he chose to attend a school that offered engineering on campus. Graduating in 4 years rather than 5 (as in a 3-2 program) would essentially balance out the scholarship money from Carleton and Williams, yes?</p>

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<p>Just PM’d you Shelldemeo.</p>

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<p>This is from the Williams website: [Pre-Engineering</a> Program](<a href=“http://web.williams.edu/physics/programs/eng.html]Pre-Engineering”>http://web.williams.edu/physics/programs/eng.html)</p>

<p>In which it says it is far more common to get an undergrad degree at Williams in math, physics…and then go to grad school for engineering. I suspect Carleton is the same. If your S knows he wants to be an engineer, it indeed may make as much financial sense to go to Rice. But, if he wants a broad education with excellent focus on the math and sciences, Williams and Carlton makes more sense.</p>

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<p>I just set stuff up on a regular Excel spreadsheet, with these column titles:</p>

<p>College Name - Total COA - Grants - Loans - Work Study - College EFC. We Pay - Our full COA </p>

<p>The “total COA” was the hard figure provided to us by the college – tuition + room & board. </p>

<p>“Grants” would include merit money as well as need-based aid – it just was the total amount of cash being given to us.</p>

<p>“College EFC” was the family contribution part as from the student aid package, as determined by the college (not FAFSA EFC) </p>

<p>“Loans” meant student loans only, I never would count a parent PLUS loan as part of the financial aid package</p>

<p>“We pay” was the immediate out-of-pocket – what we would have to come up with each year – (grants & student loans). So that amount was a little higher than the “family contribution” part because I was shifting the work-study money over to the out-of-pocket side of the equation. That’s because work-study isn’t paid in advance and requires the kid to get a job and earn – the kid might not end up doing that, and even if he does, I have a hard time seeing how my kid’s hourly wages are anything other than amount of money that “we” are paying. (“We” means the whole family, not parents vs. kid. All the money I pay also comes from earnings from work, too.)</p>

<p>“Our full COA” has the loans added back into the equation – because (guess what?) - loans have to be paid back. I didn’t go to the trouble of calculating the true costs of the loans – loan origination fees + interest paid over time – but there are some excellent utilities at finaid.org that let you put in the loan figures and then generate a chart that will show you how much interest is paid over the years. That’s kind of mind-boggling – I’ve never quite seen how offering high-interest financing is seen as financial “aid” – the bottom line is that loans are expensive! (Again, I think that your math-y son is going to like seeing the numbers).</p>

<p>Usually once I have set something out on an Excel spreadsheet, I can just highlight the chart with my mouse & then use automated graphing features to create bar graphs. I find the bar charts particularly helpful to make sense of the different balance of grants / loans/ work study in different packages.</p>

<p>Here’s an example of what field values might look like in my chart:</p>

<p>College Name - Podunk U - Second C. – Stingy U.
Total COA - 25,000 55,000 55,000
Grants 10,000 30,000 15,000
Loans 3,000 2,000 6,000
Work Study 2,000 1,000 5,000
College EFC 10,000 22,000 29,000
We Pay 12,000 23,000 34,000
Our full COA 15,000 25,000 40,000</p>

<p>Even though I’ve invented the figures in the above example, that is very close to the choices we faced in my family. Even without meeting full need, the state publics came in substantially lower, whereas my kids’ 2nd choice colleges came in with the best offers for a private, and there was a top choice college in the mix with a stingy & work/loan heavy offer. You can see how important it is to tease out the work study/loan figures. Looking at “College EFC” vs. “We Pay” vs. “Our full COA” you can see that a small difference in out-of-pocket can become quite large when large loans & work study grants are factored in.</p>

<p>Anyway – I suggest that you show this to your son and let HIM make the spreadsheets – encourage him also to look at the true cost of a loan with interest-- & add in a 4-year projection as well as looking at interest paid over the cost of the loans. </p>

<p>I am absolutely sure that if your son is smart enough to be accepted to Williams & Carleton & Rice, he will be able to easily handle this problem. It is very simple math when it comes down to it.</p>

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<p>Way too late for ROTC. Students that enroll in ROTC to pay for college only almost inevitably wash out. The ones that make it want to be officers above everything else.</p>

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<p>Also you wouldn’t be able to apply to ROTC until next year. They are about to state the people who won awards for the coming school year.</p>

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<p>As to the housing system – at Williams, first years live in something called an “entry” – see: [Admissions</a> – Williams College| First-Year Living](<a href=“http://admission.williams.edu/bigpicture/difference/firstyear]Admissions”>http://admission.williams.edu/bigpicture/difference/firstyear) – from everything I’ve heard, it seems like a pretty gentle and nurturing system for you kid who is quiet & has a hard time making friends. So if that’s a major concern, then Williams may actually offer something that meets his needs better than Rice’s residential college system.</p>

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<p>Calmom: That will definitely be his homework assignment tomorrow! Thank you for the advice. He just got an email about the entry system and it looks interesting.</p>

<p>Gtalum: Regarding the Williams pre-engineering, he saw that too and met with the physics chair about graduate school in engineering a while back. He is just unsure as to whether engineering, math or physics is his thing. I think you are right that he needs to decide what his focus will be. </p>

<p>I am sure this will all resolve itself somehow by…May 1.</p>

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<p>calmom, although I can see why your spreadsheet only included “hard figures” (billable costs, such as tuition and Room &board) and left off books and personal expenses, I think it would be a good idea to also factor in travel costs, especially if the schools vary greatly in their distance from home.</p>

<p>When one of my friend’s daughters was getting ready to head off to a college far away, there was a prominent “thermometer” type graph displayed on their fridge that summer that showed how much the daughter had saved up to be able to afford to fly home for Thanksgiving.</p>

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<p>

Actually, if he is unsure, then a LAC may be the best place to get a good foundation - because he won’t have the early pressure to focus on one thing. If he seriously wants engineering at the end, then of course he can pursue graduated study. The less loans he has from undergrad at that point, the better.</p>

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<p>Yes Calmom, the entry system is nurturing and a good way to get acclimated to the college and meet friends.</p>

<p>And no OP. I don’t think your son needs to decide his focus. He just needs to decide if he is ready to focus on engineering. I can certainly understand why a 17-18 y.o isn’t ready to focus yet. If he isn’t ready, Williams or Carlton would be great fits.</p>

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<p>Yes, I was going to make a note of that but then decided it was complicating up the example too much. I think that it makes sense to add in the real world costs for purpose of comparison – but I prefer to go with “real” and not the college estimate for those soft costs, as I figured out early on that they were estimates that may or may not apply to my kids. For example, one school might estimate $1000 for books and another might estimate $1800 for books. Unless the school has very specific requirements – such as demanding that every student purchase a particular type of laptop – the costs for books & supplies is going to be fairly constant. (Especially these days when students can find used books online instead of being at the total mercy of their campus bookstore). On the other hand, the college figures don’t account the very real costs we Californian’s often face when our kids head out to some state where it snows. Winter clothing can be pricey! </p>

<p>So the spreadsheet thing really can be individualized for what is important to the family. Travel home is also a very individualized thing – my kids never came home for thanksgiving, my son usually came home for spring break in his early years, but my d. thinks spring break is supposed to be for a vacation flying off to some exotic locale – so she had expenses, but not the type that I would have factored into college costs.</p>

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<p>IIRC, the entrys are the doorways of the freshman dorms at Williams, that have a stairwell going to a few rooms per floor. So everyone using that door (entry) gets to know each other pretty well, and I do believe they have an upperclassman RA (Resident advisor) associated with each entry (don’t recall if they live in the entry) and who is involved with them at freshman orientattion to help them get adjusted and to get to know each other (I am sure someone can provide more information than this-- this is from memory). Ther ares several campus-wide events that occur at Williams throughout the year, that help with cohesion and integration of students. The difference with a Residential College system is that you get to know, and live with, students of all 4 classes, and you ar affiliated with the college all 4 years, so there is a real sense of “family”. The College Masters are faculty members who live in a house next to the college. They are sorta like surrogate parents-- they offer study breaks, they bring snacks to intramural activities, etc. They are there if you need them. When my S broke his leg during a spring break, they were who we called. You are in a wonderful position to choose between 3 great schools. Good luck!</p>

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<p>My s started as a physics major and then switched to mech E because many of the classes required for physics were also required for engineering.</p>

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<p>You might also consider that it is is not unusual for Rice kids to lose their res college housing Sophmore year. It is typical that they may be kicked off campus one of the four years and sometimes it is Sophmore year. They can arrange to live in another res. college which sort of confused us. That was a concern for us with a shy, quieter kid. It seemed to conflict with the “residential college system” to have to leave campus or at least your college for a year. Also driving and traffic in Houston is a nightmare in my opinion but they do have good public transit.</p>

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<p>Rice doesn’t guarantee housing all four years. They say about 20% live off campus (at least that was the # last I heard a few years back). Each college has its own governing rules as to how their housing ranking/lottery system works. I think that with the opening of 2 new colleges, the likelihood of being able to stay on campus all 4 years is higher. Some of the older colleges were getting renovated, which led to some students being temproarily housed in another college, I believe. And I am guessing that perhaps if a student really, REALLY didn’t want to live off campus bud didnt do well in the lottery, they could psooibly find housing in another res college for that upcoming year. Maybe thats what they meant by living in another college. Regardless, evenif a student lives off campus, they an eat in their res college and they still have their mailbox at their res college. </p>

<p>While at many, if not most LACs, students tend to live on campus all 4 years, that isnt true for many Universities. The fact that so many students want to stay on campus at Rice speaks for itself. My s lived off campus soph year and summer after soph year (when he was doing his internship) but moved back on campus for junior and senior year.</p>

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<p>Please consider attending Carleton’s admitted student days before you decide. D1 is a physics major at Carleton. Has had wonderful opportunities, friends, ECs. Carleton is very strong in sciences in math, students often go off to graduate school in engineering.</p>