@herewelearn That’s the reason merit is important to the middle classes. And presumably why Rice gives merit so that they can attract those deserving smart students who are above the FAFSA levels. And @tutututututuru, if your parents make ~200K, I would be greatly surprised if you got need aid anywhere. I think someone on this thread above would regard you as wealthy and not worthy of merit aid.
@tutututututuru I completely agree–m22boys made some very ridiculous comments. I believe that there are many situations in which people with low-income jobs work just as much, if not harder, than people with high income jobs. And even if a students parents do not work very hard, should the student therefore lose the option of attending a world-class college because of their parents’ lack of responsibility? Should their opportunities be defined by their parents’ choices? Also, interesting to note is the idea that ‘money can’t buy extracurriculars’… While that is true in that money can’t buy participation in EC’s, certain EC’s that look very nice on a college application often cost quite a bit of money… I’m not saying I disagree with merit-based aid, but I do somewhat agree with a few previous posters in that I think it’s perfectly fine for an institution to check that they aren’t awarding merit scholarships to students from extremely high income families when that money could go to a student who was academically competitive enough to be accepted, but wouldn’t be able to otherwise pay.
@herewelearn Really? That’s concerning… My family’s income sounds about the same as yours, and when I ran the NPC on their website at the end of last year, our EFC was brought down by quite a bit of need-based aid… Do you mind if I ask when and and from where you found that out?
@wandlmink at Princeton they release the statistics. People who make 200k pay on average 41k per year. So, 16k off the full price. This is roughly consistent with what FAFSA said.
Oh, @GingerTea12 , you’re completely right. Parents’ choices shouldn’t play a factor at all. Hardworking or lazy parents shouldn’t make a difference in the students’ ability to study at a university.
M22boys:
“How fair is it that a child whose parents didn’t work hard to succeed in life get that $200,000 education for their child paid for while those of us who have worked hard and saved are expected to pay that $200,000?”
Did you truly mean that? If so, what bubble are you living in? Obviously a very privileged one.
There are over a 100 million people in this country that have jobs that require them to work every bit as hard as those who earn $250,000 a year or more. However, a lot of hard-working people in low-paying jobs, like those of high-school teachers or managers of restaurants, for instance, could never make $250,000 a year no matter how hard they worked or how many hours they worked. You do understand that, right?
I have confidence that when the Rice admissions committee identifies and accepts those students who they believe will thrive at Rice, they aren’t making judgments about how hard their parents worked.
I couldn’t agree with you more, however, that the cost of a college education at an elite school such as Rice is extremely high, a price tag the rich can only afford, and for that reason I think that even students whose parents earn an annual income of $200,000, regardless of how hard they worked, should get financial merit awards. But I don’t think students whose parents rake in $750,000 or more a year should get such financial merit awards because they don’t need them. Yes, students from such families are often brilliant and talented and have worked very hard to earn their 2350 SAT scores and their perfect GPAs, but they also had every advantage and opportunity available to them to get where they are. A lot us from very middle class families did not have such advantages and opportunities.
College Navigator clearly lays out the net cost for income brackets at Rice.
One option would be for Rice to name certain certain highly desired students “scholars” or some other designation, but that designation would only include a financial award if the student’s family’s income was below some targeted amount. Alternatively, they could encourage students for whom finances presented no challenge to decline the merit award with the option of retaining their title and whatever prestige and/or benefits that accompanied such title and have that money go instead to help defray the educational costs of another student.
So basically, you’re assuming that all poor people are lazy or irresponsible? My parents came to this country from Africa with NOTHING to their names and have had to sacrifice so much and work extremely hard just so I could go to college here. It’s much easier to be wealthy in The U.S. if you were born here, had the opportunity to go to college, and benefit from things that you probably take for granted, like knowing how the education system works because you went to school here your entire life or knowing about scholarships, internships, and other opportunities because of connections or just general knowledge that people who weren’t fortunate enough to be born in this country don’t have.
Being a non-low-income student is SO MUCH MORE than just being able to do whatever extracurriculars you want. I’ve had to give up applying to colleges because I couldn’t afford to send SAT scores to them. I’ve had to work almost twenty hours a week to pay for mine and my younger brothers’ school expenses and have given up joining clubs because I didn’t have the time. I’ve basically had to be my younger brother’s mom and dad for the last four years of my life because my parents were too busy working to attend any school functions, parent-teacher meetings, or sports games. I can’t afford any SAT prep classes or even practice books because any extra money I have goes into supporting my family. I’ve had to navigate applying to colleges all by myself because neither my counselor nor my parents know how to do it.
My entire life has been learning things by trial and error because I don’t have any advisors to tell me what do in school. I didn’t know the difference between AP classes and dual credit, what kind of clubs I could join, or what extra-curriculars I could do outside of school until it was almost too late. I’ve learned everything that I know about school from google searches.
Don’t make assumptions about people who you know nothing about.
Scholarships based on MERIT are just that, regardless of whether one’s family makes 500M per year! It’s a reward to given based on achievement by the student. It’s a given that someone with resources will have an advantage over someone living just above the poverty line… and it starts from the crib (better everything including exposure, access to unlimited resources, etc.) but what to do / whom to blame? It’s called life. However, if one makes the extra effort to make it and is blessed with an IQ to match one’s perseverance, the poverty line will not matter. School will be free at Rice and most top 25. Saying that the Rice FA’s department doesn’t understand this concept or privileges the well-to-do is not only disrespectful, but untrue. I was exposed to the School (invited twice on their dime) and the school is very protective of the students will less than average resources. I know firsthand because I am one of them. My 2 cents.
“One option would be for Rice to name certain highly desired students ‘scholars’ or some other designation, but that designation would only include a financial award if the student’s family’s income was below some targeted amount.”
I guess, by that reasoning, winners of science competitions with large monetary prices, such as (now defunct) Intel, Siemens, and Google, should only award the money if the families of the winners have incomes below some threshold. Otherwise, the winners get prestige and a plaque, but no money.
@pittsburghscribe and @FiveFactorial Does that sound fair to you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKJdKB0mwMA
Statistics given by Mr. Levy from JCK Foundation
Life is not fair, and you can only control what you can control. I grew up in the US as a Latino immigrant. I became naturalized and became a US citizen legally. It took over 10 years but I can now vote. My parents taught me a valuable lesson that education, hard work and perseverance will create opportunities for you to be successful. Don’t rely on anyone or government to do it for you. That is what I taught my kids. We were good stewards of our money. I finally paid off all of my school loans and started saving money for my kids since they were born. Because of that, we were not eligible for any need-based financial aid. The only money we received from Rice was my son’s Trustee Scholarship of which were grateful. I am middle class. Rice gave my son the best possible education. With hard work and diligence, he will be going to med school next year. My only complaint about Rice is that the tuition goes up about 4-5% per year while my son’s scholarship remained the same. President Lebron and the administration need to show more fiscal responsibility to keep the cost of tuition down or frozen. It is a general feeling that in order for Rice to be perceived as competitive, they have to raise their tuition in a similar fashion as the Ivys.
I never said that higher income students shouldn’t receive aid, I was just dispelling the earlier inclination by M22boys that low-income families are lazy. I was personally offended by it because I observe how hard my parents work on a daily basis. I understand that trying to pay for college is the most difficult for middle-class and upper-middle-class families, but I never insinuated that my hardships should take away from their success.
Yalebound2020, “but what to do / whom to blame? It’s called life.” So if something’s unfair or unjust that’s just the way it is. No one should bother to try to make something unfair fair, something unjust just.
“However, if one makes the extra effort to make it and is blessed with an IQ to match one’s perseverance, the poverty line will not matter.” Right. It’s just that simple. I’m sure you have a similar opinion of the American dream: if you just work hard and persevere you’ll achieve the American dream. Not really. Not for millions and millions of Americans for whom the American dream has become the American myth.
Recent reports by the Jack Kent Cooke Foundation and other foundations state clearly that colleges, including elite colleges, spend the least on students who need the most help. You should read such reports so you can be informed. Here are a few articles along with the report:
http://www.jkcf.org/assets/1/7/JKCF_True_Merit_Report.pdf
http://news.yahoo.com/report-shows-just-unequal-college-195700765.html
http://news.yahoo.com/report-shows-just-unequal-college-195700765.html
And your comment: “Saying that the Rice FA’s department doesn’t understand this concept or privileges the well-to-do is not only disrespectful, but untrue.” Many would say, and especially those at the Jack Kent Cooke Foundation, that a lot of FAs at elite colleges aren’t doing a very good job of attracting and accepting students from the bottom economic quartile. As pittsburghscribe astutely put it in an earlier post: while Rice may not exactly be prioritizing the wealthy, they are not prioritizing the disadvantaged
@Maximilias - I have personally attended VISION (Rice University). Unless you have been there IN PERSON I don’t think you can informatively comment on a program that does more for the underprivileged that any other college I have seen. You want to change DIVINE INJUSTICE? Do something about it, I did. Don’t expect the government, your neighbor, or Mickey Mouse help you, take action. I did and it works. PS: I listened to Mr. Levy live.
@Maximilias - One more thing: if you are so concerned with cutting every merit scholarship from the PRIVILEGED FEW (where do we draw the line? Incomes of $1,000,000 and above?) to give more to the under-privileged, maybe you can do so from within.
Personally I believe true merit scholarships should be awarded to some students if the college has the wherewithal to do so - I have no problem with students who work very hard being rewarded without regard to their financial need. I imagine families can turn down scholarships that the student did not apply for if they want to but that’s a personal decision. Often scholarship come with some strings too and these might be motivating to the student or raise their awareness about how scholarships work. Many parents try to wean their kids off the family income at least somewhat and to think about what they can do on their own over time and scholarships (including the strings that might go with them) can play an important part of that transition to independence.
Dear yalebound2020, no need to get so riled and dramatic. If you read my earlier posts, you would see that I’m not against providing financial merit awards for the privileged few, just the profoundly privileged few. I don’t doubt that Rice is doing a lot to help students from the lower middle class. And I have nothing against the awarding of financial merit awards to students whose parents make as much as $200,000, simply because the cost of an education at elite universities is extremely high. I’ve acknowledged that in previous posts, which you clearly haven’t read before swooping in to dispense your wisdom. But based on what Mr. Harold Levy said, elite universities, and that would include Rice, are not doing enough to help students from the bottom quartile of the economic strata. Where is your data to prove otherwise?
How lucky you were to be able to listen to Mr. Harold Levy live. But did you really listen to him, because Mr. Harold Levy, the Jack Kent Cooke Foundation executive director, said that elite colleges who make the claim that they are committed to economic diversity are, in his words, espousing a lot of “blather.” He also said that elite colleges do not do enough to help the most disadvantaged. That is in fact the bottom line of the JKC Foundation report.
Should another official decision thread be started or should Rice’s scholarship policy be taken elsewhere?
Rice is one of the top schools for economic diversity:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/09/17/upshot/top-colleges-doing-the-most-for-low-income-students.html
Now back to the RD thread…