Road less traveled - lesser known ECs on college r

<p>Most people aren’t learning a skill in college that they will apply to their jobs, other than exercising their mind. So I think it’s as productive to spend a good chunk of time studying music during college as any other activity, even if you don’t want to become a professional musician. And I think there is some cross-training benefit to other fields, even if you were training for a specific profession (e.g., math.)</p>

<p>It really depends. ECs can rob you of pursuing a particular thing in depth if you are not careful. You just have to pay attention to whether you feel like you are compromising your main course-of-study. However, I think a different type of intellectual exercise can help as I said before, because of the cross-training effect.</p>

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<p>Exactly. And if you want to be the very best in your main course-of-study, ECs will rob you of pursuing depth.</p>

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I just read an interview with him about this. He was already a highly accomplished musical prodigy when he chose to go to Harvard, but he felt he wasn’t “ready” for an entirely musical career–he said he didn’t have the maturity. At Harvard, he was a music major, but he said that his passion there was anthropology.</p>

<p>The decision of whether to go to a conservatory or for a liberal arts degree is a question that faces a lot of musicians–including my own son, who is a composer. There are tradeoffs–the conservatory obviously gives you more intensive musical education sooner, and you have access to a lot of other top musicians. The liberal arts degree gives you a much broader education, and puts you in contact with people who are excellent in a lot of different fields. It also gives you the opportunity to change your major if you decide music isn’t for you. People go on to very successful musical careers by following both paths.</p>

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<p>You’re preaching to the choir. However, I don’t think everyone is equipped to do that. I knew one girl that said she needed to play a varsity sport to help her study. I guess she required a lot of physical activity to be able to concentrate. I wasn’t like that. I had to quit my varsity sport because it felt intrusive. On the other hand, I needed to spend part of my time studying the humanities, whereas other people didn’t care about that (although I maintain that thinking creatively in one area can facilitate the creation of a new paradigm in another.) So in a certain sense, you have to follow your own heart, even if your objective is to maximize your own ability in one area. Growth, intellectual and otherwise, must be at least somewhat organic.</p>

<p>To use an extreme analogy, I knew one guy that only needed 4 hours of sleep. He was like a machine, and got more done than the rest of us. Had I tried to function on 4 hours of sleep, I would have gotten less done.</p>

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<p>I agree. That is why I find those declaring their sadness that proficient musicians are dropping out of music to be rather condescending and out-of-line. These people are doing what they believe is the best for them. I think we should all respect their choice.</p>

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<p>There is no reason to drop something entirely just because you can’t make it your top priority. That is illogical. People do lots of things for enjoyment, not because they plan to pursue it as a career path. If your s decides to teach math and not pursue a fulltime career as a violinist, he is supposed to pack it in? Even if he enjoys it? Even if he might like to join a volunteer regional chamber orchestra? That makes no sense.</p>

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<p>My kid can do whatever my kid wants to do. All I am saying is that having graced the math department of a really hard core university myself, I don’t know how someone can do research in math AND do something else. I have seen lots of marriages getting blown up because of the time demand math research puts on a person. So, I would be fully supportive if my kid just says that only one interest is possible to pursue properly.</p>

<p>Math teaching is another thing. That doesn’t take a lot of time. But that is also not the pinnacle of success for a mathematician.</p>

<p>I would also like to point out that sometimes kids who pursue something passionately in elementary and middle school sometimes burn out by or in high school. I have seen this occur in both music and sports with very talented kids, and I don’t think that they had <em>tiger</em> parents pushing them.</p>

<p>Yes, collegealum. My son, nationally ranked in chess for his age but definitely not pursuing it as a career, has written in essays that playing chess helped focus his unchecked energy. There are 4 young men at his chess club, all about same age, and all have great potential for success in chess. (All are nationally ranked) But only one is pursuing it heavily and he is now ranked 4th in the country for his age and is moving towards grand master status while the other boys are all experts (ratings under 2200).</p>

<p>The other boys, including my son, have pursued other ECs that leave less time for chess.</p>

<p>In response to IndianParent’s request (a-ways back) for examples of exceptionally good at one thing, good at everything else. Some of these people are famous:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Boy who was the top young male ballet dancer in the region, ultimately chose to go to conservatory, left after three semesters to join a national ballet company where he became a principal three years later. Also – member of an a cappella group, varsity wrestler, sometime actor, top 20% of his class at the top academic private school in his area. And nice guy. Accepted at Harvard (and turned it down, obviously).</p></li>
<li><p>Serious music composition student, numerous national/regional prizes for composition. Double bass player, not conservatory quality but solid for youth orchestras. Avid hiker and outdoorsman, built a canoe with an uncle and the two of them traveled together for weeks through Ontario lakes. Had a unicycle circus act, very entertaining. Top 20% student at the same school as the last guy. Accepted at Harvard and Deep Springs.</p></li>
<li><p>From my generation: Professional classical guitarist prior to college with an international performance career. BA cum laude in History at Yale.</p></li>
<li><p>Another Yale student, from my generation. Top student at the same high school as ##1 & 2. English major, mainly interested in theater, lots of directing and acting experience through high school and college, also sang in competitive glee club. Unable to find a job one summer, drew a portfolio of greeting cards and submitted them to several card companies. They paid for her college and a whole lot more. In later life, branched out into children’s books and music.</p></li>
<li><p>Yet another Yale student, a few years younger than I: Child actress, nominated for an acting Oscar in her teens. Attended the Lycee Francaise in Los Angeles, where all subjects other than English were taught in French, and the school was coordinated with the demanding French secondary education system. She was first in her class there.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Also, take a look at John Barlow, James Franco(!), Terrence Malick, Patti Smith, Richard Posner, Benjamin Disraeli, Stefan Jackiw.</p>

<p>Thank you JHS. That’s not what I had in mind though. I know many kids (all Asian, coincidentally) who are absolutely top notch in academics, and winners of multiple national competitions in a musical instrument or in science/math Olympiad. So I guess they are exceptional in one area and good in others. But what I think is not possible to achieve is to be winner in national competitions in one field (exceptional), and to be nationally ranked (though not winner) in another (good). There is just not enough time in a day to do this in my opinion. Perhaps some kids are naturals.</p>

<p>Didn’t you say right here

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12945741-post52.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/12945741-post52.html&lt;/a&gt; that he might like to be a math professor. I took that to mean teach, not spend the time doing research.</p>

<p>Be that as it may, this thread has once again veered off topic and back to the topic of the now closed threads. Lets honor the OP’s request and stay focused on OTHER, less common, EC’s</p>

<p>OK. So here is one that is very rare for around here. S2’s latest interest is in hunting. He finished his hunter certification and is just waiting for his Firearms ID card in order to begin training for his first hunt in the fall.</p>

<p>Everyone tells me he absolutely should not mention this in his college apps because Adcoms hate guns. I personally hate guns too, but I have supported him because this has truly come from him.</p>

<p>Good EC for college or not.</p>

<p>Totally agree, soomoo. There is a risk, but it shows passion. My s wrote an essay about paintball. Was also on the varsity ultimate frisbee team. Are these career paths, absolutely not. Was his essay risky? Probably. That said, he’s attending a school on a full tuition merit scholarship, so I guess it wasnt too risky.</p>

<p>^My son plays Ultimate too!! I love that sport. He’s hoping to continue it in college.</p>

<p>My son did. Also started/organized/led/got funding for/drove the van for/was treasurer of the paintball club</p>

<p>Here’s a previous thread on the issue of hunting/shooting as ECs:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/499530-my-cousin-wants-put-down___.html?highlight=hunting[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/499530-my-cousin-wants-put-down___.html?highlight=hunting&lt;/a&gt;
I think there are some unusual ECs that might turn off some admissions committees–taxidermy, maybe.</p>

<p>Re taxidermy, there is the story (urban legend?) about the applicant whose hobby was taxidermy. To demonstrate his passion, he stuffed a preserved specimen (a squirrel, I believe) into an envelope and sent it to the Admissions office of some fancy school. The clerical person who opened the envelope screamed, thinking the enclosure was a dead rat. And, as it turns out, the applicant was not as skilled at the art of taxidermy as he thought: The squirrel smelled awful. </p>

<p>The student was not admitted.</p>

<p>Tri-atholon?</p>

<p>Bi-athlon?</p>

<p>These are beyond the avg hs sport/team.</p>

<p>Juggling</p>

<p>Fencing</p>

<p>IP – You have extraordinarily idiosyncratic definitions. Winning prizes in a national competition for high school students, even one as broad as Intel or Siemens, is not really “exceptional” in my book, because every year there are a bunch of people who do it. (And all of them get good grades in school.) An Oscar nomination, on the other hand, or an actual professional career . . . that’s exceptional. (I’ll admit that I violated this in one of my examples, but it was because I knew the kid was considered an exceptional composer, and I heard his work performed. And because that, plus the unicycle act, plus the outdoorsman/Deep Springs stuff was too good to pass up.)</p>

<p>At the other end of the spectrum, “good” hardly requires a national ranking, since outside of some (not all) sports there ARE no meaningful national rankings, and even where there are national rankings, they don’t meaningfully comprise more than a few dozen people, and far more than a few dozen people can be good at something.</p>

<p>The student in my son’s class with the best college admission performance – i.e., he was admitted everywhere he applied, which consisted of Harvard and Stanford – was an Asian student with no national competitions, no ranking anywhere (outside his high school class, where he was 7th), and hardly any ECs (varsity distance runner, but mediocre, unrecruitable times, Japanese school on Saturdays). What he was, was the person all of his classmates considered the smartest, most intellectual, and most intellectually curious person they knew.</p>

<p>The other thing I wanted to add was that your list of ECs that would impress you was completely unrealistic. Anyone can publish anything on a vanity basis, all it takes is money, so that doesn’t count (although if it’s good it sure counts). Very, very few teens publish books with real publishers, and most of them are Disney Channel stars or other celebrity kids whose brands are being slapped on ghostwritten material, or children so closely related to high-ranking figures in the industry that it is the equivalent of vanity publishing. </p>

<p>There was a well-known situation six or seven years ago where a high school student had her novel purchased in a publishers’ bidding war, and she got accepted to Harvard. It later emerged that large chunks of the book had been plagiarized, and the whole thing had been engineered by an admissions counselor. (We won’t discuss her ethnicity.) There may be 3-4 high school students per decade who have books they have actually written published by actual publishers, and that IS impressive, but Harvard isn’t holding its breath waiting for them to apply.</p>

<p>And those articles – that kind of research requires a significant budget, and I don’t know of any sources that would fund that for a teenager. (Again, vanity publishing doesn’t count. Neither does making stuff up. Unless, in either case, it’s really good.) And, just like musicians and dancers, writers don’t simply appear fully formed. There’s a lot of apprenticeship involved, and unless a story can best be written by a teenager, editors are going to trust writers with more experience, whom they know better. (Cameron Crowe was an exception, but (a) he lied about his age initially, and (b) he never bothered going to college.) A cousin of mine has an exceptional career in journalism going now, but getting his first story accepted ten years ago, post-college, without having a big college journalism background, required a year of self-financed travel, research, and writing full time. That’s tough for high school students to pull off.</p>

<p>Realistically, there are many paths to follow for teens who want to write nonfiction. Lots of local newspapers and “shoppers” welcome contributions from just about anyone who is competent, and will give feedback, too. Many teens publish blogs and 'zines that actually get read. There are “national publications” that take content from high school students (and sell copies back to them), including one high school sports magazine I have seen. One high school kid I know got an internship with the sports department of a local daily, and did well enough to be hired as a consultant on a regular basis to produce stats boxes for their feature and background articles. (Which did look good on her college application, I’m sure.)</p>

<p>Remember, unlike every other activity, with writing admissions personnel get to read stuff themselves, and they feel competent to judge it. If you are a really good writer, you are a really good writer in the two essays you write for them, and they don’t actually care much about the hundreds of other things you have written that are also fine. If you can’t do a good job on the essays, why should they read something else?</p>

<p>As for writing education – at the first-cut level, there is a lot less difference between fiction writing and non-fiction than you might think. In fiction, you supposedly make up the ideas, but more often you find them in reality and shape them a bit to your story. In non-fiction, you find ideas in reality and shape them a bit to your story. Fifty thousand workshops, community college courses, writing groups, governor’s schools, and summer programs (at Iowa, of course, and just about everywhere else) will help a kid do that.</p>