I have a degree in Classics, and in my various roles recruiting and leading Talent Management for large, global corporations have hired new grads who studied philosophy, music theory, history, Renaissance Studies, poli sci, literature, etc. What someone on an anonymous message board thinks constitutes a “practical job skill” may or may not align with what corporate America considers a practical job skill.
I was part of a hiring team-- and then part of the downsizing team- after the tech bust in 2001. We had a glut of offers out to students who were majoring in “E-commerce”-- it’s easy to forget how quickly Higher Ed responds to trends and fads in education. It was easy to hire the “E-commerce” grad, and just as easy to let them go because as hard as we tried, they did not have marketable skills once the market for e-commerce disappeared. A degree in philosophy would have served them better. A strong philosophy grad can learn to program (as it turns out) a lot faster than a strong e-commerce grad can learn Investor Relations or Corporate Communications or Employee Relations or Facilities Management or Brand Management or any of the other hundreds of non-technical roles that a large, growing company needs to fill.
Learned the hard way. It takes a few decades in corporate life to understand that one person’s “marketable skill” is another person’s “obsolete and needs to retrain”.
I personally like philosophy and liberal arts more generally. But I find myself encouraging my kids in the direction of STEM because of greater opportunities (rightly or wrongly). Are you suggesting that a person with a STEM degree, say engineering, cannot also adapt to do investor relations, corporate communications, etc? It’s not like they don’t take general ed courses as part of their engineering programs.
Be careful about assuming that all STEM majors have greater major-related job and career opportunities. Consider the large number of biology graduates each year relative to the number of biology-specific jobs for them.
E-commerce (I’m picking on that one, but there are others of course) was not a STEM major. It was the non-theoretical part of CS combined with some not terribly analytical parts of finance, marketing, graphic design. It was a pre-professional degree which sounded very practical with great ROI until the tech bust. Recreation Management isn’t STEM, it’s a pre-professional degree, as are dozens of others.
I was not comparing a philosophy major to an engineer- but as UCB accurately points out, a bio major is not going to have great career prospects with just a BS. STEM isn’t a monolith (except on CC). You can major in math in order to teach HS math; that’s likely not going to be enough conceptual and theoretical math to get a job at a hedge fund developing algorithms. So not every STEM degree will have the same fungibility factor.
I am old enough to remember when Math PhD’s were driving taxi-cabs, when laid off aerospace engineers (particularly in California when the industry dried up- seemingly overnight) were getting certified to teach middle school science, and more recently, when mid-level programmers were struggling because so many companies had off-shored their tech teams. So it’s fine to steer your kids in the direction of STEM as long as everyone understands that there are no golden tickets in a global economy.
Highly specific pre-professional majors that are aimed at jobs that do not have a strong (or any) preference for that major over a more general major do not seem like the best idea, since they give little or no advantage in the target job, but signal to employers that the graduate may be less interested in other jobs. For example, do either of the above example majors gain any advantage in being hired for the target job versus a general business major or some other major?
All of this is true, and also not true. It is incorrect to assume that all STEM majors are narrow, while all Philosophy majors are renaissance people :-). The world has changed materially over the past 20 years. Some amount of STEM is decidedly better than being completely non-STEM. And often more STEM is better than less STEM. Often the STEM kids are also doing product, corporate strategy, finance etc… This too shall pass perhaps, but it may be 20-30 years before we see the next iteration. You will be surprised what gets asked in interviews these days… Also comp differences are too large these days to ignore STEM.
I’m not sure how the list you linked does that aside from suggesting that nursing, pharmacy, tech, and business pay well since schools with a large portion of degrees in these fields tend to be ranked well on the list. For example, suppose a student looks up Chicago, Reed, Santa Clara, Villanova, UConn and sees the following. Does this provide the student any useful information about “what they can expect from the schools/degrees they are choosing”?
Santa Clara – 10 Year ROI = $200k, 40 Year ROI = $1.9 Million
Villanova-- 10 Year ROI = $160k, 40 Year ROI = $1.9 Million
UConn – 10 Year ROI = $170k, 40 Year ROI = $1.5 Million
Chicago – 10 Year ROI = $170k, 40 Year ROI = $1.3 Million
Reed – 10 Year ROI = $30k, 40 Year ROI = $1.0 Million
Here is what I found useful: my son was accepted at a state school that is frankly not at all that prestigious, so I compared it to his “dream school” and was surprised to find that the state school had a higher ROI across the board than his dream school. Both had similar majors, and both were in the same state, but not the same city. I think the main difference is cost of education, which is substantial, and local opportunities. Of course we can’t isolate the critical variables here, but it was nice to know that it is not the end of the world for him to attend the less prestigious school—and it may even be beneficial. I will triangulate to make sure I’m not jumping to hasty conclusions.
It matters more what his major will be, not what other students at the colleges choose for their majors. They may not have the similar majors in similar proportions.
That does not mean that the college name was the primary driver for the reported ROI difference. There are many other relevant variables, particularly differences in attending students. Similarly the student’s cost may be very different from the cost used in the ROI calculation. If not too personal, what were the 2 schools?
He was accepted in San Jose State University (SJSU) in software engineering and UC Riverside in Data Science, but he really wants to go to a UC like Santa Barbara or Davis (also Data Science because engineering would be too tough to gain admission). But it seems that SJSU is slightly better ROI than these three UCs if we take the numbers seriously. The point is not to come up with a precise ranking order, but simply to see if there is a material advantage to going to a coveted (and more expensive) UC over a Cal State.
CSUs generally tend to have more students in overtly pre-professional majors than UCs do.
However, it is likely that the different majors may make more of a difference to your student. Based on College Scorecard median pay levels within two year of graduation for students who got financial aid:
SJSU software engineering – not listed, but computer science is $100,628.
UCR data science – not listed, and no data for related majors like statistics or computer science.
UCSB data science – not listed, but computer science is $96,026, and statistics is $66,826.
UCD data science – not listed, but statistics is $65,326, and computer science has no data.
There are numerous influential factors besides the school, but a key one is that San Jose State is located in Silicon Valley. Cost of living is higher in Silicon Valley, as are salaries in general. Some example numbers are below. Note that the listed cost of living index is 66% higher in San Jose, suggesting that a $100k salary in San Jose corresponds to roughly a salary of roughly $60k in Riverside. This difference is largely driven by home prices, so the actual relative cost of living is closely tied to what type of you rent/buy.
Riverside – Cost of Living Index = 129.4, Median Home Price = $490k*
San Jose – Cost of Living Index = 215.0, Median Home Price = $1.25 million*
*At time of report, home prices are notably higher today, with COVID influence
It’s a similar principle in my earlier example, Note that the highest ROI among the 5 colleges I listed (Santa Clara, Villanova, UConn, Chicago, and Reed) occurred at Santa Clara. Santa Clara is also located in Silicon Valley, so cost of living and salaries tend to be higher. As noted earlier, this type of difference in cost of living is not captured by ROI.
While salaries are generally higher in Silicon Valley than elsewhere, CS majors in Silicon Valley tend to have an especially high salary. It’s standard to have starting salaries of over $100k for new grads. If your son was accepted to SJSU in software engineering and chooses to work in Silicon Valley after graduation, then he is no doubt likely to have a high starting salary in absolute numbers (may still struggle to pay rent and not feel wealthy). If he majors in data science and chooses a non-CS related career path expected average salary is likely lower to be lower regardless of where he attends. In my opinion, these types of factors have far more influence than whether the college is a “coveted (and more expensive) UC” vs Cal State.
Some specific numbers from San Jose State’s outcomes report are below for 2019-20. Note that many have very small samples, so I’d take the specific numbers with a grain of salt, but the point is there is a huge variation in salary by major, which is not captured well by ROI tables like the 2 linked in this thread. I also find it concerning that nearly 40% of grads from SJSU were still looking for work at time of survey, which again is not capture well by the linked ROI tables. This is something a potential student might want to review in more detail and understand why. It could be as simple as sending the survey to students relatively early before many have had a chance to finish their first job search, or it could be indicative of a poor quality career counseling services/assistance at the college. The previous year had 42% of grads seeking work, so it’s not a COVID-related issue. Again the ROI table does not capture this.
San Jose State: Median Starting Salary by Major in 2019
Computer Science – $111k (39% still looking)
Nursing – $102k (40% still looking)
Software Engineering – $100k (53% still looking)
Computer Engineering – $95k (44% still looking)
Business – $80k (49% still looking)
Civil Engineering – $73k (28% still looking)
Accounting – $67k (17% still looking)
Electrical Engineering – $67k (59% still looking)
Mechanical Engineering-- $62k (43% still looking)
Economics – $60k (38% still looking)
Environmental Studies – $50k (75% still looking)
Social Work – $49k (34% still looking)
Psychology – $42k (44% still looking)
Hospitality//Tourism – $38k (29% still looking)
Art – $37k (89% still looking)
Chemistry – $34k (20% still looking)
Biology / Physiology – $31k (33% still looking)
Creative Writing – * (100% still looking)
As someone who develops interview guides, analyzes the metrics on hiring success across various assessment tools for hiring-- no, I will not be surprised what gets asked in interviews these days. If initial hiring salary is the only goal in choosing a college and choosing a major then go ahead and push STEM. But if you have a child who doesn’t want to major in chemical engineering or would be miserable majoring in CS-- then what?
First of all, some students are more likely to succeed regardless where they are (and some others are more likely to fail). Some students will be able to take better advantage of, and benefit more from, a certain type of environment than others (and some others will find that environment ill-suited for them). Even after the students graduate, have careers in their chosen fields, most fields are almost certain to undergo significant changes, even major disruptions, during their working lives. Some of them may be able to adapt and reinvent themselves (and others may not be able to).
If figuring out the ROI of a college, or a major, or a combination of the two, for any student, isn’t a fool’s errand, I don’t know what is.
I get it, that’s why I said by and large. And your town (based on previous posts) has a much greater range of diversity/income/house pricing than the 3 blossom mentioned, which have completely different economics.