<p>A graduate of our high school who did ROTC and graduated from college in 2009 with a cum laude degree in psychology was killed recently while serving in Afghanistan.</p>
<p>So you really must consider what military service entails before committing to such a program.</p>
<p>Justamomof4:</p>
<p>The kids that use ROTC as money for college are successful ONLY if they want to be an officer first. My DS’s unit had 24 new midshipmen Freshman year. 2 1/2 years later they have 4. I could have told you day 1 who was going to wash out. The 4 left want to be officers before anything else. I maintain (and officers I know would back me up) that if you have to ask yourself if you want to be an officer then you’ve already answered your own question.</p>
<p>Washing out can happen in college, as well as in ROTC. One in three kids don’t graduate. Iron Maiden is right - it’s going to be fairly easy to spot those that potentially won’t last in ROTC.</p>
<p>It’s going to require that much more discipline to be in the program and achieve. It can be done, but those students better want to be in the military and be officers, first. Otherwise, they will resent the amount of work and time involved, above and beyond the academics of their major program. Every semester kids in NAVY ROTC are expected to carry an extra Naval Science class and every summer, they have an obligation for a summer cruise or extra training. It’s a huge focus.</p>
<p>I believe most of us here question the true interest level of the OP who seems more interested in paying for school than in the program, itself. Sure, it’s great to have your tuition paid for…but you may also pay with your life. </p>
<p>Many young men and women are wiling to take this risk and get the benefit of their education for their future service.</p>
<p>But it’s not for everyone.</p>
<p>to the OP:</p>
<p>As a current cadet, I can tell you that, based on the mentality you expressed in this forum, we don’t want you and we don’t need you in our military. Do us a favor and free up the scholarship for someone who actually wants to be a commissioned officer, which you obviously don’t.</p>
<p>Iron Maiden – Well lots of kids don’t know what they want to be. My dad joined ROTC to pay for college (and so he would not be drafted for Korea) back in the 50’s. He served 20 years, quite honorably.</p>
<p>Ever hear of Andrew Exum?<br>
Read his book. He is quite frank in explaining that he joined Army ROTC to pay his way through Penn. Gasp! Ivy League. He liked it and was suited to it. He commissioned prior to 9/11 and rose to the challenge serving two combat tours honorably.
Good thing he didn’t take your advice. In fact, prior to 9/11 most ROTC students joined and served only for the college tuition $$$… Heck it was peacetime. Yet, these greedy souls answered the call when it came. </p>
<p>There are many examples of officers who join ROTC or attend a Service Academy to help pay for college. There is no dishonor in that.<br>
There is nothing wrong with the OP in asking and inquiring. If everyone who inquired was shot down - we would not have many future officers.<br>
It’s not for everyone but I don’t possibly see how anyone can tell from the OP’s few posts - unless you know him personally??</p>
<p>Officership is not a snooty fraternity - it is open to all young Americans who qualify and wish to serve their country for a variety of reasons.</p>
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<p>Whoa, you are way off the mark here. Unlike what you are implying, ROTC students were not slackers too dumb to know war could happen anytime. My husband was in an ROTC unit 20 years ago and every single one of them wanted to serve their country with honor.</p>
<p>The money is just not that good and the journey is too hard. If a person has no interest in going to war, they’d be an idiot to join ROTC. The story you posted is nice but the odds are overwhelming that someone not motivated to serve will wash out early in ROTC and then how do they pay for the rest of college?</p>
<p>Irishlad32, Thank you for choosing to serve your country. You’re damn right you don’t want someone serving with you whose motivation is money and who goes in with one foot already out the door.</p>
<p>I knew several ROTC students when I was in college. I can’t think of one that did it for the money. They were interested in the possible career paths and technical training and being a career officer. And that was the 80’s.</p>
<p>It is possible that some interested in ROTC scholarships MIGHT make excellent officers, even if they are unsure about their futures. Many kids ages 16-19 aren’t sure what they want to do. Enlisting in the military may be a good way for those unsure about their futures to figure it out, but I tend to believe this less with ROTC. </p>
<p>It’s pretty scripted. The classes, the advising, the training…the goal is to train officers ready to lead when they graduate and get their commissions. If you aren’t ready to lead, and yes, that means possible military operations, than you probably won’t fit. If you aren’t willing to participate in whatever objective the US government gives you, than you probably shouldn’t apply for one of these scholarships.</p>
<p>But I think the point that many of us are making in this thread is that this poster seems ONLY concerned about the scholarship money and seems to have a different career objective that isn’t military-based. That doesn’t mean that he may not be a great officer but seems to lack any interest in the military from the sounds of these posts. We can be wrong in hearing the tone and context. That’s what it sounds like to me and others. </p>
<p>Students can participate for ROTC without getting a scholarship. They can participate their whole four years without obligation. If a student loves it, can even apply for a 2nd or 3rd year scholarship. It is a good way for a student to find out if they like it before they commit.</p>
<p>Sorry to offend you all. Guess I left a bad taste in people’s mouth? Of course, none of your children are in it for the money. Andrew Exum is not an anomaly. How do most kids find out about ROTC if they are not from a military family - most discover it through the scholarship program. My point about pre-9/11 is that we were NOT at war. It was easier for most parents to get on board with their child’s desire for a military career. </p>
<p>If kids are not in it for the tuition $$$ then why are they all after a scholarship? Why does the military even offer scholarships??
The reason is to ATTRACT good students and potential future officers. It is a RECRUITING tool. Go listen to any ROTC officer talk to a kid - first thing he explains are the benefits - including getting your tuition paid for!! The Army needs officers. They are looking for officer potential and offer incentives so that it’s available to ALL not just a few who can afford college.</p>
<p>When a kid asks about ROTC and paying for college why does everyone assume the “worst”? Sadly, most people who are judgemental are those on scholarship or parents of kids on scholarship.<br>
My point is … let the kids ask the questions and give them fair answers. Once they find out what is truly involved in the program and how it works then they and their ROTC unit can decide if it’s for them.</p>
<p>The OP needs to understand that like him there are many kids exploring this path, yet the ROTC scholarship funding is not increasing. That means it is becoming more and more competitive to get one of these slots. Your grades, ec’s and SAT scores play a huge part in the decision making process. Many of these candidates that get the scholarship also have been awarded by other colleges merit money. </p>
<p>Do not walk in and think all you have to do is fill out a couple of pieces of paper and VOILA you have a scholarship. You will not only have to have the grades, but than you will have to be physically qualified, and that means a medical clearance where they exam you from head to toe, and I mean head to toe. AND you will take a fitness test where you must pass all of the portions on the test. Run a 1 1/2 mile run in 20 minutes and you failed.</p>
<p>From there you must also be interviewed by selected personnel, who will write a recommendation that the board will review.</p>
<p>All of these things are assessed on a point scale. It is called the WHOLE CANDIDATE SCORE (WCS). </p>
<p>For the AFROTC system 95% of these scholarships are given to technical majors, i.e. engineering and science. If you want to major in govt or foreign language you need to be very competitive for AFROTC.</p>
<p>For AROTC and NROTC, the system is the same, but a little different. The AFROTC allows you to take the scholarship to any college. For the other 2 you submit a list of 5, and they determine if you get the scholarship. For ex: you place UNCCH on your list, they say no, but UNCCH accepts you. OR you place NYU and they say yes, but NYU does not accept you. Either way the scholarship is not in line with the school, and thus, you may not be able to attend that school anyway. Traditionally, candidates will try to get it converted to match, but there is no guarantee.</p>
<p>Once a cadet as others have stated you will be required to attend ROTC leadership classes in uniform and get up early to do PT. On top of that the det/BN will give you a ROTC job, that means more time committed to ROTC and less from studying.</p>
<p>Not every college has a host det/BN, which could mean you will be required to travel cross town to do these things.</p>
<p>You will also learn that ROTC believes in giving back so there are mandatory “volunteer” issues. For example, our DS attends UMD, they have mandatory clean up of the football stadium about 2x a semester, and they also have mandated clean up after basketball games. Besides that they also are in charge of Susan G Kohlman run on the campus, which is another mandatory show.</p>
<p>The next issue is at some point you will go to summer field training for 6 weeks. You do not get to select wen you go during that summer, they select it for you.</p>
<p>Now for the time owed back, it varies.</p>
<p>For the AFROTC it is 4 yrs, but just because you graduate on May 25th, don’t believe that you will go AD on May 26th, sometimes you will wait 6-9 months before you report. Your pay back time does not begin until you report. In essence, what you are really looking at is 5 yrs, not 4. During those 6-9 months you wait to report you will not get paid, which means you need to get a job while you wait to report. There are schools that start a month later, but it is determined by your career path and the pipeline. All SA grads go 1st, than ROTC, that is why there can be a long lag time. </p>
<p>Accept a promotion, or a move, and your commitment increases. Take Tuition Assistance for grad school, and it goes up.</p>
<p>Take UPT (pilot training) and now instead of 4 you are at 8.</p>
<p>There is a lot in the fine print. You need to realize as others have stated the reason ROTC exists is to train Officers while they are in college. </p>
<p>You need to realize that they will own you for that time period. Forget talking about war, how about if they say to you, you will now be stationed at Minot N.D. for the next 3 yrs or Camp Red Cloud, So. Korea for the next 2. Do you understand you can’t say “I don’t want to go there”? They say go, and you go.</p>
<p>The upside as an AF wife, and now an AFROTC Mom is that the military will create the best friendships you will ever find. Your friends are your family. </p>
<p>You will travel and see the world that others can only dream about, some of it great, some not so great.</p>
<p>You will have great educational opportunities, if you elect to use them. For example, if you are eligible you can go to law school on their dime. Mind you it is very competitive. </p>
<p>Doors in the corporate world open for you because being 27 with a Masters while leading 100 men in combat is amazing compared to the 27 yo with a Masters that has nobody reporting to them.</p>
<p>You want to work in the collegiate world. As an AD member you can become an ROTC professor or an SA professor. Many of these professors use that time to get their pH.D, so when they leave they transition over to the university.</p>
<p>Remember the one thing about professors, that every professor hates is called “publish or perish”. Professors are expected not only to teach, but they want them to write too.</p>
<p>Good luck on your choices.</p>
<p>FWIW I suggest you go to serviceacademyforums.com and post your questions on the ROTC forum. You will get a lot more bang for your buck there since the majority of posters are military involved be it the academies, military colleges (VMI, Citadel) or ROTC.</p>
<p>Justamom, </p>
<p>Of course it is great to ask questions. ROTC isn’t for everyone, including people that see themselves as good candidates for the military. </p>
<p>It seems that you might think we are being too harsh on the OP for asking these questions. I don’t see it that way. If the OP is interested in getting his tuition paid for, which is clear he is interested in that route because he states that, then we are giving him a reality check. It’s a long process and worthwhile, but it’s not something to be taken lightly.</p>
<p>If he can’t handle the few questions we are asking of him, than he won’t be able to handle the interview where is is grilled on why he wants to go. Wouldn’t it be better to show him the good and bad, now, before he spends months and months going through the process? </p>
<p>I assume he is a junior in high school or younger and is wondering how it all works out. </p>
<p>During Spring of junior year, the applicant will begin the ROTC scholarship process, usually completing the application in summer before senior year. There are medical reviews and an interview, in addition to making sure your teachers submit their recommendations and you submit your application and test scores, well before you even submit your college applications. It can take 6 months or more to find out if you qualify. You will usually know by spring of senior year whether or not you obtain a scholarship. As Bulletandpima outlines the college selection process in her post, I won’t repeat that process.</p>
<p>And yes, if you do there is a big check attached to it, with conditions.</p>
<p>Nothing wrong with getting your education funded by this method, justamom. </p>
<p>This student is interested in becoming a professor. He might end up one, later on, but that isn’t the main objective of ROTC. He would have to serve in a role that may have nothing to do with education or “research”, as he states he is interested in. </p>
<p>My points are focused on the OP’s seeming disinterest in military careers, which is the usual outcome if you choose this route. Read these posts below:</p>
<p>Here are his questions from his posts. </p>
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<p>I read the entire thread. top to bottom. I know the process. I have been through it and am quite familiar with it - thanks.</p>
<p>The OP asked questions in soundbites. People made assumptions that may or may not be correct and he recieved negative posts starting with post #3. They went downhill rapidly.</p>
<p>Truth is - most kids lose interest when they discover that they need to pass a physical and take regular PT tests. More are discourage because of parental disapproval as expressed in post #21; incorrect posts as in post #17 and snooty posts as in post #24.</p>
<p>Of course ROTC is a way to pay for college. ROTC has given countless young Americans a way to pay for college - mostly first generation college students.
While ROTC is demanding it really is not overwhelming. Thousands graduate and commission each year from a wide variety of colleges with a wide variety of majors who have a wide variety of career aspirations.
To make statements like - “you can’t teach” is incorrect. Quite a few teachers are in the Guard and have served honorably on deployments interrupting their teaching career.</p>
<p>Most kids are smart enough to figure out if they are compatible or not without a bunch of know-it-all strangers telling them how they don’t have the ‘correct’ motives.
I would appreciate a little less judgement and a few more facts.</p>
<p>Re post #21 (which I posted) - I was not expressing parental disapproval; I was raising the point that in joining the military you risk being killed.</p>
<p>Justamom, please give me specifics in post 17 that are factually incorrect. I am speaking from helping my DS with the process, research, and speaking with active duty officers whose current billet is CO and XO of an ROTC unit. </p>
<p>The money is nice. The XO told me that one way he can tell is to ask the student if they would join ROTC without the scholarship. Those that say “no” inevitably fail. Those that say “yes” want to be officers and serve their country. They almost always succeed. </p>
<p>There may be small exceptions on both sides. Given what the OP has posted alarm bells have gone off. I’ve seen several kids manage to get the scholarship for the money. When they drop ROTC they are left with no way to pay for college. I know of s couple who dropped after their Sophomore year that had to pay back the money. We’re just trying to make sure the OP has the appropriate information.</p>
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<p>How many people do you know who went through the ROTC program? I personally know dozens and I’m saying Exum is an anomaly. </p>
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<p>And my point is that those very same parents lived through Vietnam and their parents through WWII. Do you really believe those parents were such optimists that the majority of them thought this country would never go to war again? You’re also forgetting the first Gulf War, Bosnia and so on. </p>
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<p>Not all ROTC members are on scholarship. The Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force also offer ROTC scholarships, it’s not just the Army.</p>
<p>You’ve proven over and over again how very little you know about ROTC yet you stubbornly stand by your insulting statements. That you think pointing out that war is in an inevitable part of ROTC and death is a possibility is being “negative” or showing parental disapproval further undermines your statements on ROTC.</p>
<p>There’s nothing wrong with not knowing a lot about an issue. There is something wrong when a person keeps offering up incorrect and insulting “facts.”</p>
<p>I believe that Justamom also has experience with a family member in ROTC.</p>
<p>We are all trying to help the OP and others considering this kind of service, although we are coming at this from different perspectives and interpretations. I don’t think anyone is intending to misrepresent facts or opinions. ROTC isn’t for everybody, as has been mentioned. </p>
<p>It is always hard to tell what a poster truly means when they ask questions or make statements. We can only go by what they have said or intoned.</p>
<p>It is possible that the OP may make a great officer one day.</p>
<p>fendrock - noted. This point is made in nearly every ROTC thread. Yet, yound adults have a greater chance of being killed in an auto accident but no one tells kids not to get their DL. Thanks for the reminder that we are a country at war and the personal sacrifices our service members make every day.</p>
<p>Iron Madien - Army ROTC commissions many officers directly into the Guard and Reserve. It’s possible to get a scholarship to pay for your college and serve in the Guard or Reserves while having a civilian career. It is possible to be and Army officer and become a professor.<br>
It is also possible to have successive careers in one’s lifetime.</p>
<p>pugmadkate - a lot. Not only ROTC but service academy cadets who when fed can be quite frank in their discussions.
My own father - a Vietnam combat veteran, thank you. My brother. Many more who served in order to get $$$ for college and did so, rising to the challenge quite honorably. </p>
<p>Now, take our friend IrishLad who is a student at GWU. GWU is quite an expensive college. He sounds like he is on scholarship and I am sure would be quite upset with his service if he woke up tomorrow and found his bill was no longer being paid. I am sure he feels like he deserves it and he does. If he would find himself in the position of having to drop out or having to transfer due to a loss of funds then $$$ are at least partly driving his college.</p>
<p>SLS - correct. I have a daughter who is a soldier and will commission in 2012. Yes, she and I are well aware of the pros and cons of a career as a military officer.</p>
<p>Bottom line - if a kid posts on here that they are interested in ROTC or a military career; I do my very best to provide factual, objective information. I don’t guess personal motives. The facts speak for themselves and most kids are capable of digesting the facts without being preached to.</p>
<p>First off, from personal knowledge, I know for a fact that pugmadkate and JAM are very aware of the ROTC system, but like me we all have different branch experience and different life experience (spouse, dependent, parent, etc). </p>
<p>JAM and Pug …know ROTC first hand, and they know the AD world 1st hand. Give them that respect. They are a fountain of info not only when it comes to ROTC, but also the AD world.</p>
<p>Remove the danger of death. If you use that in a decision process you might as well lock yourself up in a closet, because to live the military life you must accept death is a part of life. </p>
<p>As warped as that sounds, it is one of the beautiful aspects of the military. You live your dreams because you know the risks. You don’t leave anything left unsaid. You love and live. You don’t think about death. You just don’t think that way.</p>
<p>Back to the OP. I am with people who say don’t take this route if you don’t want to serve. Go in debt with student loans. Go to a CC for 2 yrs and then transfer to a 4 yr.
Create a different plan if you cannot or will not accept that they own you for 4 yrs at least after graduation.</p>
<p>That means if they say you can’t get vacation time (leave) you can’t, no if and or buts. </p>
<p>That means if they say move to ARK you move.</p>
<p>They own you and if that bothers you, or you can’t live with that than the ROTC scholarship needs to be re-visited.</p>
<p>Additionally, I think people are putting the horse before the cart for many reasons.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>ROTC scholarship boards started to meet months ago. AT this point if the OP is a SR in hs, he is really behind the 8 ball. It will be hard for him to meet the last AFROTC board at this point. As I stated the pot of gold is limited, that means he maybe SOL.</p></li>
<li><p>Nobody knows this kids grades. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>AFROTC takes a nationalistic approach and the college has no impact on the decision. They take the highest scoring candidates award them the scholarship.</p>
<p>AROTC and NROTC take a college approach. Candidates apply for the scholarship that are tied to the college. They need to get on the ball now by contacting them to make the list for that college.</p>
<p>In both cases grades matter.</p>
<p>3.
…</p>
<p>I think maybe the OP has left the building.
I don’t have anything to add except that I agree with all those who said “don’t do it just for the money”. If there is no real interest or at least willingness to serve, don’t do it.</p>
<p>S1 commissioned through NROTC. His class started with 28 and four years later commissioned 6. Those who are really serious and committed have little tolerance for those who aren’t. It’s not the “free ride” the OP is looking for.<br>
S1’s active duty training has been the hardest stuff he’e ever done in his life. College was a cakewalk in comparison. You gotta want to do it.</p>
<p>I am currently a military science professor at an Army ROTC program. The rules and regulations concerning ROTC change often and with little fanfare. If anyone has questions about the process, as it is right now, let me know.</p>