<p>I was not referring to the obvious math superstars who may be appropriately placed in more advanced math courses. It was more of a comment on the idea that a student who is on-level in math (algebra 1 in 9th grade, having not been placed in advanced math in middle school) is somehow “behind” and not admissible to a selective college unless s/he doubles up on math (usually algebra 2 and geometry), skips a high school math course, or takes math in the summer in order to become advanced to take calculus in high school.</p>
<p>The person I quoted (sorry, I haven’t been able to get those green boxes to work) was talking about kids taking calculus in middle school.</p>
<p>I think a student applying as a STEM major to selective colleges really should complete calculus in high school, unless they attend a school that doesn’t offer it and can’t easily take it off-site. In our area, middle school math placements are so overly ambitious (way too many students pushed too fast and then floundering in high school), it’s hard to imagine a student with any STEM potential at all escaping middle school without having been pushed at least through algebra1. Our high school algebra1 is double-blocked for remediation. But for the STEM student who was overlooked for math placement in middle school, I do think it’s a good idea to double up and catch up to the peers who were started a year earlier on high school math. </p>
<p>I also think that a student applying as a studio art or English major should no more be expected to have calculus than the pre-engineer would be expected to submit an art portfolio or poetry supplement.</p>
<p>Doubling up on math may be hard to do for a student with a full schedule of the other usual high school courses (English, science, history or social studies, art or music, physical education), depending the number of periods in the day and when each course is offered.</p>
<p>Yes, it could be too hard to do, depending on the school schedule. It would be much better to get the right placement in middle school. Of course, you don’t have to have calculus, I just think it’s advisable, especially for the more mathy majors. These are just my opinions. I don’t know what the admissions officers think about it.</p>
<p>Not all ms offer Algebra - ours did not. That was a problem because other feeder schools into the IB magnet school my kids attended did. So they took short enrichment Algebra courses in 8th grade. That was plenty of prep for kid2 to skip Algebra (validated by an exam that year) and start Geometry, but it didn’t work as well for kid1. </p>
<p>It’s interesting that your school system would offer a magnet school but not middle school algebra. I wouldn’t recommend skipping over algebra1. It’s so fundamental. Much better to skip some of the repetitive pre-algebra in middle school.</p>
<p>Our school district (probably just the feeder schools to one of the high schools) moved kids ahead starting in 5th grade (I don’t know if they still do this though). The advanced 5th graders take 6th grade math and then in 6th grade they take 8th grade math, Algebra I in 7th, geometry in 8th, until they are able to take calc AB and calc BC/multivariable calc (each is a year-long class which I know ucbalum doesn’t like LOL). Students can also just move ahead one grade if they want.</p>
<p>If they miss out in middle school, they can take honors Algebra II in high school which combines Algebra II with precalc and then they can take calc in high school. Not sure if they still offer that class because the teacher who taught that retired over the summer.</p>
<p>My D was 2 years ahead but for some reason she did not do well enough on the AP Calc BC test to place out of Calc II in college (she thought she would get a 5 but she was nowhere near that score). She figures there must have been an error but we didn’t want to pay the College Board $25 to figure out what the problem was. </p>
<p>The low score was a blessing in disguise because she gets a refresher by taking the Calc II class and she can focus mostly on chemistry which requires a lot of her time. She doesn’t like the calc prof because she doesn’t think he knows much about calc but she does like the TA. Her HS calc teacher is a former engineer and computer programmer and she taught the class why each concept is needed in the real world and my D loved that (and she misses that now). Had she received a better score on the AP test, she definitely would have skipped Calc II because the second half of AP Calc BC was multivariable calc and even Calc III should end up being mostly a review for her. We’ll see how it goes. So far, she scored a 97 on the only test she’s taken. I told her she should send it to the College Board :).</p>
<p>S and D were both engineering majors. S took AP calc and retook calc 1 in college. I think he got a 3 on the AP exam. He said that every kid in his calc class had AP calc in high school. It was not mandatory but the school had a summer program for those who didn’t have AP calc and chemistry in high school.</p>
<p>D was a better math student and got a 5 on her AP calc exam. She didn’t see the point of retaking so went into calc II in college. She said that most of the kids in her class had calc BC in high school instead of AB which she had. She said that there was not a curve since it was a review for most of the kids and she got a B. It was a good choice for her because it gave her room to drop statistics later and still be on time to graduate when she had a very tough semester.</p>
<p>“B” may be the result of a belief that, regardless of any one standardized test score, an AP course is not truly college equivalent. It’s taught in the high school, after all, by high school teachers.</p>
<p>My S (a freshman engineer) felt he was “behind” in math even though we tried to convince him otherwise. He was on track for 7th grade algebra, district changed rules to make algebra an 8th grade class. Then we moved to another state that did have 7th grade algebra and he felt his peers were ahead of him. He would have been on track to take AP Calculus AB as a senior, but he wanted BC. Summer after junior year he took an online college course (Calc I) that was approved by the HS–as long as he passed he could skip AB. He did pass and while he initially struggled in BC, he quickly caught up and did well in the class (test score of 4, with a 5 on the AB subset).</p>
<p>Because of the college credit, the AP score, and his math placement exam, he was offered the chance to take Calc 1, 2, or 3. He did not want to do Calc 1 for the 3rd time, and he was informed by older students that Calc 2 could be a weeder class and was not terribly useful for his future course of study anyway. He opted for Calc 3 and so far has been doing respectably well.</p>
<p>Just an aside–I have discovered that even though A’s were the holy grail in HS and anything below an 85 used to send us into palpitations, we are now extremely content just to know S is not flunking out! It is quite the mind shift.</p>
<p>DS has a friend attending a Midwest LAC, who as a freshman with a strong ACT score and A’s in HS precalculus, was strongly discouraged from 1st-term freshman calculus class at his LAC “because he was ill-prepared”, with net result of being unable to finish freshman calculus sequence freshman-year and will be out-of-sequence for STEM majors at that school. That 1st-term class contained students who all had AP Calculus credit. So I think OP’s view has a fair amount of accuracy.</p>
<p>But is it necessarily taught better in college, either in a lecture hall with hundreds of students, or in a smaller classroom probably by an adjunct or graduate student? Of course, there can be effective calculus teachers in either high school or college, but there can also be ineffective ones.</p>
<p>Probably the best way for the student to determine whether to take the advanced placement allowed by the college based just on AP scores is to check the college’s old final exams for the course that may be skipped. Assuming that it is always better to repeat the course can result in a waste of time and schedule space (and could result in situations like that described in post #31, where students taking calculus for the first time are pushed out of the course because it is full of students repeating their AP credit).</p>
<p>It’s been suggested to D that she take Calc AB over the summer so she can take Calc BC as a senior (our HS also requires a full year of AB as a prerequisite for BC). I am not convinced that her summer is best spent that way, even though she is very likely going to choose a STEM major of some kind.</p>
<p>My daughter’s HS had a group of kids that had run out of math classes by their senior year (and they offered multivariable calc - which is considered calc 3). They did things like take math classes at a local private HS over the summer and one even took precalc at the HS at the same time as he took Calc at the local CC. So although they started out HS maybe only a year or 2 ahead they ended up many years ahead by graduation. (BTW - these kids did the same thing with science - taking lab science classes over the summer at a local HS so they could take all 3 AP science classes - bio, chem and physics in High school.)</p>
<p>These kids then ended up at Ivies and only got credit for a few of these classes. (some did not take the AP tests senior year for just that reason - no credits to get.)</p>
<p>I support taking calculus in HS if you are able and competent and then your placement in college math should depend on the college’s math curriculum. For some majors the AP calc will satisfy all the math the kid ever needs. For others, who need many math credits, I suggest that you review the course syllabus for the different calcs and see which one fits what you already know. At many schools the calc sequence varies by major and so going into calc 1 vs. 2 or 3 will depend on the college, your major, and your comfort with the material.</p>
<p>I support high school kids taking some Calculus in high school if they can because then they have some Calculus to use in Physics. Kid can learn Calculus and Physics at the same time, but it is easier to go into Physics with some Calculus knowledge.</p>
<p>In my own little sample set, about half of my son’s friends who made fives on the BC AP test took the advanced placement and continued on in the next level of math. There were a couple of topics they didn’t know, but the topics were not crucial. The kids caught up and moved on. The other half of the high scoring kids did not take the advanced math placement and so repeated some of their math.</p>
<p>I’m a bit puzzled as to why kids would want to repeat calculus if they already got a 5 on the BC exam. I think calculus is better than most APs in terms of college equivalence. Are the colleges finding that kids flounder in the higher level math classes if they use the AP credit?</p>
<p>I’ve actually been wondering about this recently. At my son’s HS, there is no good sequence for the kids who are strong in math other than geometry (8th), honors algebra/trig (9th), AP stats (10th, he got a 5), precalc/discrete math (11th) and then either calculus AB or BC, depending on the grade in precalc.</p>
<p>My son will major in computer science. At many colleges he’s considering, the freshman year curriculum contains Applied Calculus or something similar. I am not sure whether it is expected that kids with AP calculus credit will take these classes…I would assume so if they are considered foundational for the major.</p>
<p>At my kids’ HS, there is an option to have pre-calculus team-taught with Physics in a course called “IAP” - Integrated Analysis and Physics, taught in two back to back periods. It is the preferred class for juniors who are at that math level.</p>
<p>The two teachers who teach it have been doing it for 15 or so years and say they think it is really useful to learn concepts and apply them immediately, in the same course.</p>
<p>D is in it now so time will tell, but in theory, I like it.</p>