<p>My S just got back his Oct SAT scores and didnt get to 600 in Math that would give him a better shot at getting into the engineering programs for the colleges to which he is applying. So my question is this:</p>
<p>If he gets into his higher choice colleges but not in engineering but gets into engineering program for his safety schools is it better to enroll in one of the higher choice schools and get his math skills up freshman year and then try to transfer into the engineering school or should he just go to the engineering school for one of his safeties? I would think that the former would require an extra semester or two to finish his degree but might be worth it in the long run. </p>
<p>Looking for your thoughts.</p>
<p>Note: He will take SATs again in Dec but I'm asking the above question with the assumption that he scores similarly in math again since his first two scores were both in the low 500's.</p>
<p>Transferring into engineering is much more problematic than tranferring out. Freshman year typically involves lots of core engineering/science classes (math, chem, physics) that other majors do not require. Also these are typcially at a higher level than other majors - so even though S takes Math 101 that’s not same as Math 121 that engineers take. </p>
<p>So you’re correct a extra year might be required. I’d also check with the engineering dept to make sure they welcome transfers.</p>
<p>U might try having him take a class by the time he takes the SATs again. I first took the SAT and got a 620 math, 540 reading, and 500 writing. Then I took a course and upped my total score by 200 points. Now I have a 700 math, 660 reading, and 520 writing. I understand that you may think I’m simply smarter than your son but that is NOT the case. Its a common problem I find myself doin when I see others with higher scores and it shouldn’t be done. SATs are worded in certain ways and follow certain techniques/patterns. Once he learns these then he can apply his own knowledge and score much higher. </p>
<p>Then you can analyze your options from there. If your still in the same situation then I would say go to safety engineering because as someone has said, transferring into engineering is hard. And not just that, but 10+ years after college, where you get your degree makes less of a differance than what you did while in industry.</p>
<p>There are Engineering programs that accept students below 600. Plenty, he may just have to aim lower. Engineering is engineering at City College & at MIT.</p>
<p>I agree with GoOakland that you should analyze the word techniques in the msth section…take it in December and study this november on the SAT math section with the Original SAT book.</p>
<p>If it comes down to that decision, I agree with treetopleaf that he should take engineering at a safety over general classes at a higher ranked school. As osdad said, it is more difficult to transfer into an engineering program. Additionally, there are other reasons to go with the engineering program. One is that all ABET accredited programs have basically the same content. Another is that if your son goes to a higher ranked school and transfers into engineering there, he might always be struggling for grades in curved classes with smarter/harder working people. Just a thought.</p>
<p>That is not true. The quality of education and the ability of graduates from those two programs will be different. If otherwise, why even bother having different admissions standards for the two schools? </p>
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<p>I would look at the schools on a case-by-case basis. Most schools will tell you what is required to transfer into engineering (usually some GPA requirement), and using that information, you can judge the likelihood that he can transfer into engineering.</p>
<p>As osdad mentioned, engineering programs tend to have very specific and rigorous first years, so your son should start by taking the same calculus and science classes as the engineers. That will decrease the difficult of transitioning to engineering and will probably improve his chances at most schools.</p>
<p>What’s the risk? If he cannot get into the engineering program, he will likely have to transfer to that “safety school” anyway. If the match school is substantially better than the “safety”, transferring should not be a problem, and since he would have already taken the calculus and science courses, he should not be far behind the engineering students that started at the safety school.</p>
<p>What I mean to say G.P., is that if his goal is simply to be an engineer, he can be one at any school with an accredited engineering program. An elite/prestigious engineering school is not necessary if someone just wants to be an engineer. So it is true. However tougher/more impressive getting an engineering degree might be at MIT, you can’t say that the harder worker at City College isn’t an engineer. He is.</p>
<p>Yes, but the implication was never my point. My point is that the OP’s son could be an engineer at any number of schools. If he wants to be an engineer, he could apply to schools whose SAT math scores are not in the mid-high 700s, if he is unable to make the cut-off. If it’s his dream to be an engineer, he doesn’t have to give it up, because he doesn’t have an elite engineering education. </p>
<p>Lastly, an education is what an individual puts into it. I know people who have graduated from City College with PhD offers from Harvard - not saying this is everybody, nor that this people could not have done it straight out of High School, but while perhaps not being “equivalent” – students, whether at MIT, or City College, are limited only by themselves, not by their institutions of study.</p>
<p>Finally, a little common sense around here – thank you. </p>
<p>OP
While I risk my great CC reputation here I will tell you that I scored a 510 math SAT. I came to Purdue as a business major bc I was pretty certain I didn’t have a shot at engineering – my first semester I took all first year engineering classes (my academic advisor in business loved this, trust me). I blew away the required transfer admissions criteria, and here I am – high GPA at a good engineering school with lots of job offers even in this economy. I’m not going to lie to you and say that it’s been easy, far from it, but it’s worth it. It’s very true, I’m not nearly as smart as the people around me on a daily basis, but I work a hell of a lot harder and make friends with all of them - my degree, is a team effort lol - they teach me how to do math and engineering, and I teach them the things I’m better at. If your son is a crazy nut-job like me, just tell him it can’t be done and he’ll find a way.</p>
<p>Hey, that’s me too! Had a 3.2 gpa outta HS while every other kid in ECE seemed to have a 4.0+. Although my math was always pretty good, I had to work hard to get where I am. 1 semester away from graduation. All I can say is, my GPA is much better than it was in HS :)</p>
<p>Anyway it is typically more difficult to transfer into Engineering than to get out of it. However, if your S proves himself in the pre-reqs his first year, he should still have a fighting chance to transfer into engineering. </p>
<p>It really depends on the schools in question. If both his high choice and safety had comparable programs than I’d go with the safety engineering. However if his high choice school is miles ahead in engineering than the other, transferring into engineering is a better option.</p>
<p>Thank you all for your input. Its encouraging to see that all is not lost and there are ways to transfer in with some hard work (and that other viable options exist). </p>
<p>My S is pretty bright and does well in his math and science in HS. He is just one of those kids that doesnt do well on standardized tests. His GPA from a private HS is 3.4 and he is even taking AP Physics Senior year so I feel confident that he can handle the work if he pursues engineering the way that PurdueFrank stated if he is accepted to the schools but not for engineering.</p>
<p>That brings me to another question. If he applies and lists engineering as his first choice and something else second and third choices, will colleges usually accept you for your 2nd or 3rd major if you meet there criteria but not the engineering criteria? My wife is convinced that they look at your first choice major only and will reject you if you dont meet that criteria regardless if you meet their criteria for general acceptance.</p>
<p>To the OP - That’s why it’s important to apply to a myriad of programs. We have to trust that universities/colleges administer the application process the way we’re told, but if not, and he ends up being rejected, there are several options: 1) petition the rejection; never too difficult a thing if it isn’t a particularly selective university/college, 2) Start lower, and transfer to another more recognizable program after 1-2 years in college.</p>
<p>Kansas State University, for example, does not require SAT scores nor ACT scores. Students are admitted into the College of Engineering based on GPA alone. Your son could go to a program like this, and transfer out after 2 years. (If you are in Kansas, the college is only 6k tuition) Another option may be taking the ACT. I do tutor SAT, and I find that a self-selected group of students {namely, those who perform well in school, but maybe not so hot on the SAT} whose SAT scores are questionable, do better on the ACT. </p>
<p>Lastly, I do think if it is your sons intention to go to school for engineering, he should apply as an engineering major. If he’s showing aptitude in math and science otherwise, his SAT scores will not hinder him from being accepted into a solid program. He could also apply as “undecided” and then switch to engineering once admitted.</p>
<p>That’s usually because people trying to transfer in to engineering are usually business or science majors that lack the normal engineering pre-reqs (the calc sequence, multiple lab sciences, and/or CS classes). If a student plans ahead, takes the same classes as the engineers, and does well (GPA 3+), I can’t imagine an academic advisor would reject the application unless the program was full.</p>
<p>My brother didn’t have the grades to get admission directly into his engineering department of his U. So he applied as a Philosophy major and got accepted with much lower grades than the engineering school would have had. He likely wouldn’t have gotten accepted to the school if he didn’t apply for Philosophy.</p>
<p>He go batch/auto registered for philosophy classes and then when he got access to the schools registration website he simply dropped all his classes and registered for the classes suggested by the academic catalog for his admission year.</p>
<p>Most schools operate in a way so that all new freshman are not actually accepted into the major until they meet a certain requirements. Many schools only accept students into their major after 2 years of academic work with a certain gpa and others have a set number of classes plus a gpa requirement.</p>
<p>At My U you actually didn’t need a advisor for your major, it was all merit based. If you took the classes, you applied for graduated and if you meet the degrees requirements they would grant you the degree. I likely saw my advisor 2x my entire college career.</p>
<p>Engineering schools almost never finish the year with the quota they hoped to meet. Such as my U, the CSE department had a 72% drop out rate of new freshman. So of all the new cse freshman, only 28% or so actually registered for the sophomore courses. Numbers were lower in others engineering disciplines, but not by far. Engineering schools literally always have room for new students, so many people drop every year. </p>
<p>BTW, I had a 490 on my Math SAT when the test was of 1600 and I graduated fine with a engineering degree. To be honest I did better in some of my math classes than some of the math majors taking them.</p>
<p>The SAT is not a good judge of ones intelligence. Its a rather stupid test.</p>
<p>Fine, but the math section is honestly very easy. If you don’t do well, you will likely struggle. But as long as you work really, really hard, you have a chance :)</p>
<p>Before attending college, you sometimes hear stories about people having to put 40-60 hours a week into school and may come to assume that this is the norm. However, this is very far from the norm. But if you do want to succeed, you may have to put this into practice. Of course, you have to approach this intelligently. It’s not about how many hours you put in. It’s about your technique (no, not memorization). But if you’re willing to come out day 1 and say you may have to sacrifice all your weekends to maintain good grades, then you have a chance. Otherwise, sink to average and do a lot of extra curricular activities. Although I’m not a fan of option 2 (to me, it’s a cop-out), it will maintain your mental sanity and you will still have a strong chance of getting a job (provided you at least maintain a 3.4).</p>
<p>Im not sure where you are getting your information, but a hell of a lot of people who dont have a 3.4 GPA get jobs. If your statement was correct, only about 1/3 of engineering students would find employment after graduation (if that) and we all know this isnt the case.</p>
I will tell you that I scored a 510 math SAT. I came to Purdue as a business major bc I was pretty certain I didn’t have a shot at engineering – my first semester I took all first year engineering classes (my academic advisor in business loved this, trust me). I blew away the required transfer admissions criteria, and here I am – high GPA at a good engineering school with lots of job offers even in this economy. I’m not going to lie to you and say that it’s been easy, far from it, but it’s worth it. It’s very true, I’m not nearly as smart as the people around me on a daily basis, but I work a hell of a lot harder and make friends with all of them - my degree, is a team effort lol - they teach me how to do math and engineering, and I teach them the things I’m better at. If your son is a crazy nut-job like me, just tell him it can’t be done and he’ll find a way.</p>