SAT optional == marketing ploy? (NYTimes Op Ed)

<p>Lafalum, your position could be the poster child for what is so wrong in this debate: an army of people who, relying on a lethal combination of unproven or biased opinions, blatantly false facts, and sketchy understanding of the issues, do not hesitate to speak with a voice of authority. </p>

<p>So, are we supposed to take the opinion of your sister-in-law--who makes money tutoring but accuses others of racking in the money--or your own opinion and join you in congratulating the schools that have now seen the light? </p>

<p>Would you like to compare what your sister-in-law charges to the "expensive" tools sold by The College Board? How many minutes of her time would equate to the $69.99 online course? Could she even function without the $19.95 Guidebook that is widely available for 13 dollars at Walmart? 888 pages for the price of a couple of magazines and a double latte! Ah, the racket! </p>

<p>Are you tired of the monopoly of people making big bucks? Well, come back with your sister-in-law and tutor the kids right here on our forum. The price of admission is right at ... ZERO. They'll love it!</p>

<p>Of course, it is easier to hurl wild accusations and complain than to actually DO something about it!</p>

<p>This said, it is quite ironic that the article was penned by none other than the Prez of Reed.</p>

<p>Isn't it though?</p>

<p>or thoughtful? :)</p>

<p>I think it is good to question the SAT, make it optional, tarnish its crown so to speak and relegate it to just one of many factors that may be considered when selecting students for this university or that.</p>

<p>It is only one factor. The one that tells, as the author says, whether the 4.6 GPA is due to rampant grade inflation. How does someone with a good vocabulary and good comprehension not score well on CR? With strong math skills (we're talking up to algebra II!) not score well on math?</p>

<p>What does it mean not to be a good test taker?</p>

<p>It is only one factor at colleges the admission into which some parents are willing to spend hundreds, perhaps thousands, for SAT prep.
S1 is not as good a test-taker as S2: anxious, tends to second-guess himself, runs out of time. But there are many many more tests to be taken in four years of college. Why object to just one test?</p>

<p>my daughter appreciated the atmosphere and flexibility in testing situations at Reed
Taking a test in your room or in the meadow, can be much less stressful and allow you to more fully show what you have learned.
Taking a timed test, where you are not even allowed to get a drink of water or move around, can restrict some students from being as successful as they might have been in another situation</p>

<p>It's not so much the test I object to. It's the false claim that it does a good job predicting college success. I applaud the schools that have recognized that fact and are striving to find alternate ways to evaluate prospective students. I hope and expect that other highly-rated colleges will follow thier lead.</p>

<p>Sounds like a member of fairtest.</p>

<p>There's always the ACT.</p>

<p>Lafalum, I guess you just discount the article. The point of it is that the colleges making SATs optional are not doing it because they don't think the test is worthwhile. It allows them to report higher scores to keep their ranking up while taking who they would have taken anyway.</p>

<p>I think the SAT does a pretty good job of distinguishing really great colleges from average colleges.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It's not so much the test I object to. It's the false claim that it does a good job predicting college success. I applaud the schools that have recognized that fact and are striving to find alternate ways to evaluate prospective students. I hope and expect that other highly-rated colleges will follow thier lead.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, those are a different set of arguments from the earlier position. However, I hope you do realize that it's not too hard to debunk the issue of "false claim" on a number of levels. For starters, what is the definition of "good job" in predicting college success or "college success" altogether? </p>

<p>Can't we take the 10 highest ranked universities on the USNews and juxtapose their 90+ graduation rates to the highest SAT in the nation? Oh, I know the trite rebuttal of causation versus correlation, but it is a undeniable fact that the most elite schools DO use the SAT as ONE of their predictors. </p>

<p>See, how that works? One of their predictors! And, there is where the trouble starts for the SAT-haters. The schools do NOT use the SAT in a vacuum; they establish correlations between SAT and GPA and find it positive that the combination of SAT + GPA is stronger than the GPA alone. Keep adding elements such as SAT Subject Tests and the predictors become stronger and stronger. It follows a very simple pattern where the sum of the parts are stronger than every individual element. Remove one and the result is ... weaker. </p>

<p>Last but not least, before sending tons of kudos to school that are downplaying the value of the SAT, it may be helpful to scratch the surface a wee bit. Do the schools TOTALLY discard the SAT? Oops, they still use the worthless beast for placement or for comparison sake among candidates. </p>

<p>For what it is worth, I wish the schools who pretend to survive without the SAT would be forced to ... just do that! Let the Bates, MHC, Bowdoin, and Middlebury of this world go through their admission process without receiving a scratch of paper from the much hated College Board. Yes, nada, zilch ... go SAT optional and find yourself ostracized from ALL results. Go optional, and find yourself lumped into a special category of schools in the much hated USNews reports. </p>

<p>Now, that would be quite a dilemma and a LOT harder than making the wishy-washy decision and tryind to keep and eat your proverbial cake at the same time! Gone would the days of unabated manipulation where the reported scores are whatever the administrators want them to be after meetings worthy of 1600 Smith in Houston--yes, that is where Enron used to prepare their financials. </p>

<p>In the meantime, I'll simply withhold my applause and my respect. </p>

<p>As far as hoping and EXPECTING that higher ranked schools will join the Fairtesters, I would not count on that happening soon.</p>

<p>i'm not sure what incurs the ire of those who find the sat optional policies of liberal arts colleges inappropriate. perhaps the easiest way to remedy the situation would be to ask USNEWS to report all students' scores, and not only those who submit them. that they don't, or that the colleges don't, indicates the difference of opinion over whether a magazine should dictate the admissions practices of colleges or whether colleges should still maintain some sense of autonomy in whom they admit and how. </p>

<p>other concerns are: that the difference between the actual average of SAT scores of students at, say, bowdoin and the average of those who chose to submit their scores (roughly 80% of the applicant pool and 80% of the admitted class) is substantial enough to contribute weightily to the fraction of the selectivity score the SAT comprises and, even less plausibly, contribute with any meaningful difference to the overall rank of the school. it is hard to imagine it would so seriously change the result.</p>

<p>further, at bowdoin the SAT is used to help gauge which classes one enters, but it is not the gatekeeper to those classes. the chemistry department had their own diagnostic test when i was there, and the math department granted open admission to any student in any class without a prerequisite, notwithstanding whether or not that student followed the suggested correlation between SAT score and math level. for instance, i got a 720 on my SAT math, but had taken a gap year before starting at bowdoin. rather confident in my math ability, i enrolled in the highest calculus class available at bowdoin without prerequisites. after a year of no math, and a fogginess about the derivative itself, i decided to not take the class after all. bowdoin's correlative chart used the SAT to determine that i could handle a certain calculus class. it did not, however, use the SAT as a sieve to block students who were up for the challenge to take a class that did not correlate to their score. the claim that colleges should use the SAT 100% or 0% is unreasonable. </p>

<p>if there were no USNEWS rankings, SAT optional colleges would not cause any controversy whatsoever. the fact of the matter is, most people find it unfair that certain highly ranked liberal arts colleges are so ranked when they don't have to disclose the information fully to USNEWS to participate in the ranking. again, it is beholden on those who are so rankled to make sure that the difference in SAT averages would create such a drop. For there are 2 ways to view the USNEWS rankings - an assessment of student and college quality used by non-applicants to understand a loose hierarchy of american education, or an assessment of student and college quality used by applicants to determine whether or not he or she could be admitted to a certain school. if an applicant is using USNEWS, it would be counterproductive for a school like bowdoin to include in its SAT average those scorers who didn't submit. indeed, it would drop the average and encourage students who would likely be rejected because of a low SAT score to submit that score on the faulty assumption that there are those in attendance at bowdoin who were admitted with that score. an average that consists only of those students who submitted their scores provides an applicant to bowdoin the only possible gauge in determining whether or not they should submit, based on those members of the college who did submit. </p>

<p>finally, i am nonplussed by president devin's editorial. he has no axe to grind about ranking fairness and unfairness. instead, he seems to assume that the skills that make one successful at difficult and prestigious colleges in new england are assessed exclusively by the SAT. that he thinks it implausible that admissions committees could use other assessment tools is a surprisingly narrow view of student quality from a college president of a traditionally open-minded place. furthermore, it seems strange that the president would cast such a disparaging view on the ability of applicants to decide for themselves whether or not they should submit scores. the admissions process at a place like bowdoin does not come down to SAT alone. if an applicant chooses not to submit, she is not immediately admitted. an applicant may think her ability greater than it is; if so, that overconfidence is expressed in the rest of the application. if an applicant is right about the sat, however: that it doesn't accurately measure her intelligence and ability, that too will be evident in an excellent writing sample. it is not inconsequential that bowdoin requires two full essays in the application to the college. </p>

<p>perhaps there is criticism to levy on places that recently move to an SAT optional policy solely to boost their rank. but such an accusation is at once exceptionally cynical and also presumes that there could only be one persuasive reason to do such a thing. the presumption is wrong, however. in 1969 bowdoin introduced their sat optional policy, a good 20 years before USNEWS standardized american higher education. they did so to increase student diversity, meaning to bring more artists and actors to campus, students whose creativity was not typically well served by the SAT. that bowdoin has been SAT optional for almost 40 years provides ample statistical evidence against any fairtest naysayer that would rather settle with a cynical conclusion that look at hard facts. they are:</p>

<p>there are many reasons to adopt an SAT optional policy</p>

<p>the SAT does not typically serve more creative minds well</p>

<p>the SAT can be studied for and is not equivalent to an IQ test</p>

<p>those who choose not to submit their SAT, at bowdoin at least, have, over the past 40 years, not differed in college GPA from those who were admitted with their SAT. some of bowdoin's more successful alumni would not have been admitted had the school required the SAT.</p>

<p>trotwood's prose is rather hard to follow.</p>

<p>
[quote]
if an applicant is using USNEWS, it would be counterproductive for a school like bowdoin to include in its SAT average those scorers who didn't submit. indeed, it would drop the average and encourage students who would likely be rejected because of a low SAT score to submit that score on the faulty assumption that there are those in attendance at bowdoin who were admitted with that score. an average that consists only of those students who submitted their scores provides an applicant to bowdoin the only possible gauge in determining whether or not they should submit, based on those members of the college who did submit.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think that even Cicero wrote sentences as convoluted as this. BUT, if I can follow the logic, reinforces the point that Bowdoin's reported scores are higher than that of the admitted students and applicants ("indeed, it would drop the average"). Why should Bowdoin be afraid to encourage students whose scores are similar to the non-reported ones to apply, especially since<br>
"the SAT does not typically serve more creative minds well" and
"the SAT can be studied for and is not equivalent to an IQ test"?
"further, at bowdoin the SAT is used to help gauge which classes one enters,"
Given these caveats, why is it used at Bowdoin at all?</p>

<p>The SAT existed before USN&WR decided to rank colleges.<br>
Colleges used the SAT before USN&WR decided to rank them.
SAT ranges are useful even to those who don't care about college ranking to determine where to apply.
SAT scores can help colleges compare GPAs earned by students at widly different schools.</p>

<p>The SAT is only ONE among several components of applicants' profiles that adcoms use. And this is why, even at colleges that do not make the SAT optional, applicants with lower scores are often admitted over applicants with higher scores. How is it different from Bowdoin's results from making the SAT optional?</p>

<p>If Bowdoin et al don't believe in the usefulness of the SAT, stop using the SAT ALTOGETHER. Trotwood's post is an example of defenders of the policy speaking from both sides of their mouth.</p>

<p>
[quote]
a magazine should dictate the admissions practices of colleges or whether colleges should still maintain some sense of autonomy in whom they admit and how."</p>

<p>[bowdoin's] correlative chart used the SAT to determine that i could handle a certain calculus class. it did not, however, use the SAT as a sieve to block students who were up for the challenge to take a class that did not correlate to their score. the claim that colleges should use the SAT 100% or 0% is unreasonable.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, well! I am rather puzzled by the statement that the editors of USNews have become ad hoc admission officers or that the magazine is now challenging the autonomy of colleges in establishing admission practices.</p>

<p>However, the account that Bowdoin uses a correlative chart based on the SAT to determine placement in a ... Calculus class is not only puzzling but entirely mind-boggling. Please do not tell me that Bowdoin is not unaware of the fact that the SAT is mostly 9th grade math and that there is not a shred of calculus on the test. </p>

<p>Please tell us it ain't so!</p>

<p>
[quote]
SAT scores can help colleges compare GPAs earned by students at widly different schools.

[/quote]
I don't think so, given the test-prep factor. On an individual level, a high test score may merely indicate the amount of prep that went into the test. </p>

<p>High schools can be compared by other means -- such as whatever profile the school submits to the college, and by demographic data readily available for most schools in the US. (I can look up any school easily on greatschools.net -- I'm sure the colleges can too).</p>

<p>I beg to differ. A high school profile does not really tell you what the grading practices are beyond the equivalence between a letter grade and a numeric grade and whether the grades are weighted or not. It does not tell you whether Teacher Julie's A is equivalent to Teacher John's A or not.
The demographic data can also be misleading. What to make of the fact that half of our high school qualify for Free/Reduced lunch, but also includes children of graduate students (who do qualify) and children of faculty at Harvard, BU, BC, MIT, etc...The overall education a student receives reflects parental income and educational levels. SAT scores are only one small reflection of that. </p>

<p>I would hate the SAT, about which I have great reservations, be the end-all or be-all of admissions, or even a cut-off. But as Xiggi has mentioned, it is a useful data point. And despite the fact that it can reflect some test-prep, it is less manipulable than GPA, essays, or ECs. To date, no one has claimed that an impersonator took the place of the student in sitting the SAT. But we know of applicants whose essays were worked over by others, whose ECs were actually conceived of and perhaps even performed by others.</p>

<p>Neither does the SAT score, Marite. Unless the SAT score is way out of line -- for example, an under 500 score compared with an A in a class, it tells you nothing. You can't look at my son's 700 verbal score and my daughter's 620 CR and decide that his high school was better or tougher, or that his A is worth more than hers. He had good English teachers and bad ones, and she had good ones and bad ones... and with both of the kids, the bad teachers were more likely to be the tough graders than the good teachers, perhaps because their grading practices were inconsistent. My daughter was in the top 4% of her high school class and my son was at the 11th percentile rank at his, and if you use SAT scores to make the judgment that my son just went to a tougher high school.... you'd be wrong. My son spent more hours playing videogames in high school than anything else -- I rarely saw him doing homework.</p>

<p>Now if you looked at overall school data -- not my son's or daughter's individual scores, but the average scores for their high schools, you'd get a very different picture. But that is no different than looking at overall school profile data.</p>

<p>One of the myths that I see is the belief that there is a lot of grade inflation at mediocre or poor high schools. I call it a myth because in my own experience with public schools, it seems that the teachers in the regular courses were tougher graders, with it easier for my kids to get A's in honors and AP classes. Pressure for giving A's comes from college-bound kids and their parents -- they are the ones who will complain about a B they think is undeserved. So I think you are more likely to see grade inflation at schools that serve more affluent, college-bound kids.</p>

<p>"So I think you are more likely to see grade inflation at schools that serve more affluent, college-bound kids."</p>

<p>This is perhaps the best reason for requiring SAT scores, but only as one indicator of college admission qualifications.</p>

<p>Agree with Vossron. Whether there is grade inflation at poor schools or affluent schools, the SAT will show that.</p>

<p>I recently leafed through a magazine that ranked private schools in the Boston area (the cheapest day school has a tuition of $17k, the most expensive has tuition, room and board of $30+k). While the SAT ranges were higher than our high school (48% on F/R lunch), they varied quite markedly among themselves. </p>

<p>Still, I don't understand this fixation on the SAT as if it were the only criterion used by top colleges when they themselves say it's not and their pattern of admission shows it's not.</p>