<p>I was also wondering if mainly athetes, minorities, and females don’t submit SATs. I am a white male and am not submitting. Does anyone know if Bates is more crictical about the white males who don’t submit (the stereotype is that white males tend to do better.) It’s not my fault I don’t fit into this sterotype. I’m just not a good test taker. I’m hoping that high grades coupled with decent ec’s (nothing extraordinary), good essays, good recs, will get me in. I’m hoping that you don’t have to be a legacy or an athlete to get in without SATs.</p>
<p>Come on, anyone. I know there have been several views. Any input would be greatly appreciated!!!</p>
<p>This part of the forums is so small, I think not many people visit here. Maybe this question can be answered in a more popular forums, such as College Admissions and such?</p>
<p>Here's what I think the deal is at Bates with SATs. The average non-submitter has SATs around the 1200 (new 1800) level, compared to the 1360/2050 level of submitters. The official position of Bates is that the GPAs of submitters are virtually the same as non-submitters, leading some to believe that SAT is not a valid predictor of college grades (as its detractors will claim). But this has to be interpreted carefully - the non-submitters accepted by Bates are probably, as a group, extraordinary "over-achievers;" that is, their performance is much better than standardized test scores (IQ scores, SATs) would indicate. There may be kids with average intelligence, but who know how to apply themselves - which is a trat that will often get you further in life than just raw intelligence. </p>
<p>But the acceptance rate at Bates is much lower for non-submitters than submitters; the burden of proof that you are qualified to be a Bates student is much higher for non-submitters. So, who are non-submitters?yes, some athletes, minorities, legacies perhaps. But mostly, the successful non-submitters will be kids who have extraordinary achievements otherwise, but don't test well. Valedictorians (or other high academic achievers), great writers, people who show tremendous leadership potential - those who are highly accomplished, but don't have high SAT scores.
Don't think that you can just not submit, and that they "won't care" The purpose of having SATs optional for the school - at least one purpose - is so they have the freedom to admit highly accomplished and otherwise promising students who don't test well - without negatively affecting the college's SAT average. IF they averaged the non-submitters in with the submitters, the school's average score would drop substantially (maybe 40-50 points), and that would not be good for US News and other purposes.</p>
<p>I am a highly qualified student. My rank is in the top 2 percent of a large public highschool but I'm unfortunatley not valedictorian. It seems unfortunate that I have such high grades in many challenging classes and just don't perform well on standardized tests. I think the SAT tests a narrow scope of thinking and I don't believe you should have to be extraordinary in something else to have an excuse for poor SAT results. I was actually deferred from Bowdoin and did not submit SATs. I have not accomplished anything extraordinary and am not an athlete. I am, however, well-rounded, creative, well-traveled, and a good writer. I think it is unfortunate that schools advertise themselves as SAT optional but do not mention that their policy only refers to a select group of students- which apparently does not always include those who are simply just high achievers, motivated, and well-rounded. I believe that my esssays related unique and insightful metaphors which provided evidence that I am a mature, determined, and intelligent person. Bates claims to value the individual. I do not fit into the stereotype of the white male who is benefitetd by the SAT. I find it kind of demoralizing that one test has to so severely limit my options. I greatly appreciate your candid response, but how exactly did you find this information. Did you find it online or actually speak to a Bates representive. Again, thankyou very much. I don't mean to sound bitter but am going through an incredibly stressful time right now. I'm wondering if I'm a rarity- for not submitting SATs and not seeming to fall into these categories. I always thought a major point of a great college was to help a person with a great amount of potential to flourish and grow as a person. I find it quite unfortunate that Bates would stoop to the level of not admitting qualified applicants just so they look good in US News- which is an extremely random, ungenuine, and superficial approach to represent colleges. I fail to understand why our nation mesasures success by means of SAT scores. I don't believe that a teenager who doesn't perform well on tests should have to accomplish something incredible before college. A person who doesn't do well on standardized tests and has high grades is actually indicative of an achiever, someone who is determined, works hard, and is very intelligent. And the ironic part is my verbal combined with writing is actually pretty close to Bates' average (1300) but my math combined with verbal works out lower. I hope that one day some colleges begin to hold this perspective. I love Bates but if they can not come to the conclusion that I'm a highly promising student and an individual who doesn't fit into their "SAT Formula" (which ironically is kind of homogeneous in the types of kids they are letting enter by means of no SATs) then I hope another great school accepts me or else I will spend four years in a place where I probably will not have benefited intellectually and socially nearly as much. I just do not understand how most of the nation's schools can reject highly qualified, well-rounded applicants who just can't take a test.</p>
<p>Eric - First, I did not literally mean that you need to be valedictorian in order to get into Bates without SAT scores. Second, I am a parent of a future Bates student, and not a member of the Admissions Committee. My comments are based only on my understanding of the process, through extensive reading, discussions, and general knowledge of the system and the NESCAC schools. I am not the ultimate expert on this subject; you might want to have a more candid conversation with an admissions officer (find out which one has your high school in their territory).
There is not formula for admissions at Bates or at any small, highly selective college. The college is trying to put together a class that represents many talents, interests, cultural groups, places of residence, etc. It is much more art than science.
First, it would help to know whether your SAT scores are below 1800. If they are, then submitting them will surely not help your case. But if you don't submit them, the presumption is that they are significantly lower than the Bates average of about 2040. Again - what I was trying to say before was that the SAT-optional policy is designed to provide an opportunity for students who otherwise are very talented and have proven it. Graduating in the top 2% of a large public high school is excellent. I'm assuming that you have very good teacher recommendations, as well.
For you, the following items are key: Your transcript, hopefully showing top performance in the most challenging course your school offers; your counselor and teacher recommendations, which support your case as someone who is destined to achieve great things in life, regardless of standardized test scores; and a very, very interesting, thoughtful, and well-written essay.
If you're someone with a clear record of high achievement (regardless of whether you are valedictorian), then the Bates SAT-optional policy is a good one for you. However, just like for anyone else, it is not a guarantee of admission. Bates admissions is very competitive and they make tough choices among many more qualified applicants than they can accept.
Also - has your school sent students to Bates in the recent past? If students at about your rank in the class have gone to Bates and have done well, that's good - it gives Bates another guage for evaluating your academic preparation.
A deferral at Bowdoin does not mean you will get deferred or rejected by Bowdoin; while the schools are similar in many ways, Bowdoin admissions is probably slightly more competitive, and they may be looking for different things. So don't despair, and don't give up. Bates may well turn out to be the perfect place for you, and the Bates Admissions Office hopefully will figure that out!
Good luck, and feel free to email me privately or publicly if you want to discuss this more.</p>
<p>I meant "a deferral at Bowdoin does not mean you will be deferred or rejected at Bates"</p>
<p>I also think that since I receive high grades and apt to take the most challenging classes, that is indictive of an achiever. I apply myself everyday in my academic and intellectual pursuits. It doesn't mean you do not apply yourself if you do not accomplish anything extraordinary and do not test well. I think the fact alone, that I obsess so much over these colleges, highlight my determination and desire to succeed and apply myself. I love Bates but think that it is unfortunatate that I don't fit into Bates "non SAT forumula" (which is ironically kind of homogeneous in the kids that it sumbits- I could be the new type of person that it submits). I know that I will take great strides in the future to better myself, help those around me, and make beneficial contributions to the world no matter where I end up at. And if Bates can't see that, than it is unfortunate for me but certainly will not inhibit me from thriving and being driven to my fullest potential.</p>
<p>I understand that. I'm sorry that I sound quite bitter. I'm not angry at you- but at the entire system. Please don't take offense to what am saying- it just makes me feel better to write this. You should be extremely proud of your son for his acceptance.</p>
<p>There's no reason to be bitter just yet. You still have the EDII process and RD in front of you; just make sure that you present yourself in the best light possible. Have you had an interview? That is really, really important at Bates; with an interview, you would get a chance to show how you might be a great fit for the school. Without one, and without submitting SATs, I would say you have very large hurdles to overcome.</p>
<p>Yes, I have had an interview and agree with you completely. I think my interview went pretty well and I expressed a great amount of interest in the school. I mentioned its unique aspects such as its relationship with the environment and specific examples of the incredible connection among students in the Bates community. These were only some of the many things I discussed, but I couldn't really find a way to be incredibly original. My interviewer told me that it was evident I researched the school very well.</p>
<p>I agree with Eric completely... there is too much emphasize on the SAT in college admissions. I can understand its necessity given the varying academic rigor of high schools... it can be extremely hard to tell what an AP Course or a 4.0 means from school to school, but, to let 3 numbers rule a decision can be distrastrous. It's heartening to know schools like Bates place less emphasis on the SAT and more on other facets of academics and character, but I too imagine it must hurt you in the process by not submitting them. This makes me very nervous, as I believe I am academically qualified to compete for a spot at Bates. In my situation, I have only one score below Bates' average. My writing is well above, and my verbal is right on target. My SAT IIs are fine for Bates as well. My one low score is my math score. Because of that one low score, I have to risk Bates thinking all my scores are below their average, and let me tell you, it sucks. I am hoping my essays will help me given that writing is my strength (got an 800... not that they will see it...). I really expressed my interest in Bates with passion during my interview and revealed to my interviewer the extent to which I have researched the school. I submitted my AP scores (two 5's) and some supplemental writing to try to make up for not submitting... but I'm still so nervous. I love Bates, but I have a feeling February could be a sad time. I really hope Bates is genuine about its policy and that its not a marketing ploy designed to increase the number of applicants thus decreasing the admit rate. I understand that it is harder for a school to admit a nonsubmitter, and I am trying to have faith that Bates will extensively evaluate each candidate, and not write them off completely for not submitting scores.</p>
<p>I really do feel bad about your SAT math morningview... (I had a similar math score) I mean, even with your score it's obvious that you can do basic math and the SAT math doesn't even closely resemble Calculus or other math in college. I think it's just supposed to test logical reasoning- but I don't believe that little math word problems can equate to your ability to write a persuasive paper or form a compelling argument in class. The math just tests one way of thinking which is quite narrow- and I don't believe this type of thinking is as useful for people involved in a liberal arts curricululm. And your other scores were very good for Bates. My verbal and writing combined was about 60 points below Bates' average but I still wished that that counted so that I could have submitted it. 5 on AP English is incredible. I'm sure your essays will be great- I actually just revised my supplemental a little bit so that it would give the admissions committee a greater insight into the person I truly am. Unfortunatley, Wtidad stated the truth- maintaining a high SAT average is important to Bates. I started to argue a little with him- I can't believe I was arguing on this site with a parent. Wow Eric- do something else in your spare time! And I also heard some unfortunate news today. I called the Bates admissions office who asked what their ED II acceptance rate is. It turns out that it is exactly the same as Regular decision which is now 28 percent! I know, the news stunned me too. I just hope that our essays, interviews, and grades help pull us through. The good news for you is that Bates is familiar with your high school. (At least I think you mentioned that) Bates has never even heard of my high school. Bates has also found that people in Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire where you are tend to have very smart students who for some reason don't always do as well on tests. Well, we'll just have to wait and see. How's school going? I've gotten two B's this term in two extremely hard AP classes in which the teachers have given the majority of the class B's. Hope Bates doesn't see that...!!! Were a lot of kids in your school deferred from schools- kids in mine were- but they applied to more selective schools than Bates. It's nice to be able to relate to someone in a similar situation to me. And I'm praying that my interviewer gives me a good report! Maybe many colleges in the future will make the transition to SAT optional but will really only do so to decrease their admit rates so they move up a spot or two on US News Report (that is so crafty, sneaky, and devious)</p>
<p>The same rate as RD???? Then what is even the point in applying EDII? Wow... it would be nice if they stated that little fact in their literature somewhere. I'm starting to get more and more discouraged about Bates everyday... I think college admissions have just gotten way out of hand. The results at my school have been mixed so far. We've had people get into Cornell, Williams, Middlebury, and Johns Hopkins, but we've also had deferrals from Georgetown, Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, etc. A good friend of mine was outright rejected from Middlebury. I still cannot fathom it; he is an excellent student, very involved, and his brother goes to the school. I thought he'd probably get deferred, but not rejected! BC also deferred him, and he has double legacy there. I was deferred at BC, as expected, and accepted to Providence. I have to say- I am starting to wonder where people who are smart, but not geniuses, go to college now. State schools? It's ridiculous... my tennis coach graduated from Bates a few years ago, and she was nothing special. I think each school is getting more and more competitive each and every year, and it's getting insane.
As for my school, we've sent people to Bates, but we don't typically send many. Our school seems to have much tighter relationships with the Catholic colleges and large northeastern universities. I know Bowdoin almost never takes people from my school. I am guessing this has to do with the fact that traditionally, people from my school did not go to LACs often. This seems to be changing, though. Since I am not sure how familiar Bates is with my school, I'm afraid they won't understand how challenging it is, despite the fact that it does not have a big name.
It really is comforting to know someone out there who is in such a similar to situation to me! We're both so dedicated to this, and I hope that comes through in our applications. I'm praying that we both somehow end up in that 28%!</p>
<p>Wow, I am also surprised that the acceptance rate for ED II is that low. I guess I have only seen the combined ED rates as being around 50% or so. As for the SATs, I am fairly sure that you will not be penalized in anyway if you do not send them. However, since less information is available to the admissions committee if you do not send your scores, more emphasis is placed on the remaining aspects of your application. Therefore, the other parts of your application should be very strong if you want to be competitive in the applicant pool. Also, I have been to some meetings for admissions stuff at Bates and they have all emphasized that they look at the person just as much as they look at the rest of the application. In other words, you guys should try to relax because no one will know your actual chances until your decisions are released in February. I know its very hard to be calm right about now, but if you keep being anxious for two months you will drive yourselves insane. So best of luck to both of you and feel free to ask me any specific questions if you have them.</p>
<p>Eric- I got in without submitting any test scores Early Decision I this year! If I can do it, so can you. I thought standardize testing would keep me out of college because well (I've never been good at multiple choice tests since like, the 4th grade) but thanks to Bates, they didn't.</p>
<p>But a lot of effort into you application, submit a supplement, etc, and SATs don't mean anything :)</p>
<p>Congrats, clairethebear! And I hope your success gives eric a morale boost. Eric, the days after a deferral are down days. And they are days of trying to figure out the "why" of it all. Really, you likely cannot figure it out. The SAT situation, whether required or optional at a given school, is a morass of the school using the scores to evaluate kids and constantly "watching its own back" to see how its admitted class scores will be viewed by USN&WR. It's no good, but it is what it is. </p>
<p>Kids who are deferred or outright rejected from their ED school go on to have spectacular acceptances from equally or more selective schools in the EDII or RD rounds. Search for the "Rejected" thread on the Parent Forum for a recent highlight of many such situations.</p>
<p>Look hard at the parts of your application you can still control - essays and short answers, interview. Make them the best they can be and I predict you will have success.</p>
<p>thanks for the congrats jmmom!
And Eric...I read a little more of what you have written. I submitted a 3/4 of a page long creative writing piece along with my application. I got straight B's in accelerated classes grades 9/10 and my grades have been steadily improving since then. From what I have read, you seem like a great writter. If your SATs don't define you, find something else that does, and it sound like you have a lot. I think they WANT supplements if you don't submit. I really, really, hope you get in, because I know what its like to feel so afraid that your SATs will keep you out of the college you really want to go to...and it's not fair, when you care about your studies and when you have worked so hard. </p>
<p>Also, in my interview, the assistant dean of admissions told me that they don't require SATs because they believe that the tests only measure a students ability to take a standardize test. It's that simple. I don't believe they make assumptions if you don't submit. They just look at other parts of your application more carefully.</p>
<p>not sure where you guys are getting your info. Bates' common data set for 2004-2005 indicates that 216 of the 399 ED I and II applicants were accepted. That translates into a 54% acceptance rate for ED.</p>
<p>see the last page here:</p>
<p>We were referring to EDII... for some reason, the rate is much lower than EDI. That's extremely disheartening to me; I really wish now I could've made up my mind just a few weeks earlier!</p>
<p>Congratulations clairethebear!! You must be so excited!! And, you give me hope; like you, I submitted a lot of supplemental writing, including creative samples and an analytic paper. I also submitted my AP scores. I am hoping that will compensate. If you don't mind my asking, what were your other stats, and where are you from? (Being a white female from NE is definitely gonna hurt me). Again, great job and best of luck at Bates next year!!</p>
<p>Any other EDI acceptees out there??? I wonder what the admit rate was this year.</p>