Yup, I can think of several reasons why that might happen:</p>
<ul>
<li>GPA and test scores that are not in sync. For example, a low GPA with high test scores – a red flag that begs the question: Was the grading scale difficult at this kid’s school? Or, did the student not put that much effort into their school work? Or, did the kid’s parents spend money on test prep?</li>
<li>A high GPA but a transcript lacking in rigorous courses.</li>
<li>Teacher recommendations that were anything but stellar. I love this blog: <a href=“Marymount California University's Admission Blog: When Recommendations Attack! (The Worst Letter of Recommendation We've Ever Seen)”>http://marymountcollegeadmissionblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/when-recommendations-attack-worst.html</a></li>
<li>A lack-luster essay, or one that comes across as immature or demonstrating a lack of insight or good judgement.
– An application that appears too similar on paper to many other students. Nothing clearly jumps out making the student unique, interesting or different from hundreds of other applicants. Yeah, they’ve got a great GPA and test scores, but they don’t have anything else that stands-out.</li>
</ul>
The point was colleges do not consider all SAT scores of 2250+ to be equivalent, as the post I replied to stated. Unfortunately we don’t have access to the full admissions stats for most colleges. We only see pieces of the puzzle. The pieces we do see do not suggest chance of acceptance flat lines once crossing 2250,. For example, the Brown admission stats posted above show a notable differences in admit rates between 33-35 ACT and 36 or 750-790 SAT and 800. Parchment and scattegrams/Naviance with a large sample sizes show the same pattern for the vast majority of highly selective colleges. In a particular GPA range, admit rate increases as test scores increase, including for scores of beyond 2250. Yes, the data sources are not perfect and have a number of biases, but they all point to the same conclusion. Obviously holistic colleges look at the whole package, beyond just stats, but that doesn’t mean that they stop caring about test scores once you cross over a particular threshold, such as 2250. Instead their websites often state the opposite.</p>
<p>I never said colleges didn’t care about SAT scores – they do. But it’s NOT the be-all and end-all that some students seem to make it out to be. In fact, at some colleges like Harvard, Admissions seems to put MORE weight on GPA. Did you look at the scattergram: <a href=“The Harvard Crimson | Class of 2017”>http://features.thecrimson.com/2013/frosh-survey/admissions.html</a>. Did you notice how more than half the class had GPA’s of 4.0, but half the kids did not have perfect or near perfect SAT scores? That the average SAT score was below 2250? To me, that indicates that other more subjective factors accounted for the classes acceptance.</p>
<p>Data, you can’t tell that from statistical reports. When you’ve got the last X thousand (Harvard has called it 6000 for 2000 seats,) you have already refined the list to the most desirable. At that point, they may cherry pick for higher scores or NOT. Or other needs. You have to recognize the process, it can’t always be easily gleaned from the results. The bar is considerably lower than 2250 or 750 each. Folks also need to consider, using CC hs threads as an example, that not all kids know how to create a positive impression in their apps, no matter their standing. Every time gibby points someone straight to H words- and the kids either glaze over or actively dismiss that- I question whether they will have the “stuff,” when their review is on the table. Goes for high stats, high gpa, hs leadership, you name it. High stats does not equal savvy. it reflects another attribute or two.</p>
</a>
Nobody in the thread said colleges don’t care above SAT scores or SAT scores were more important than GPA. The Harvard scattergram only shows admits – no rejections. This makes it extremely difficult to try to guess at admit rate for different stat groups or how GPA/SAT influences admissions decisions. For example, I’d expect far more high stat applicants than low stat applicants, so even if acceptance decisions did not consider GPA or test scores, the scattergram would show more admits as GPA increased and as SAT increased. One aspect of the scattegram that would not be predicted by random admission decisions is the lowest stat acceptances have an inverse relationship between test scores and GPA. That is, the lowest GPA admits usually had very high test scores, and the lowest test score admits usually had a very high GPA. </p>
<p>
Harvard obviously has far more 4.0 GPA applicants than 2400 SAT applicants, so one would expect far more 4.0 GPA admits than 2400 SAT admits. Harvard may not even have enough 2400 applicants for it to be possible to fill half the class.</p>
<p>But Brown shows you they are barely trying.
The number of vals and sals admitted is dwarfed by top 10%. They could have easily pulled that extra 900 out of vals alone, if that was the marker. Same for SAT M. 837 kids from 650-740, who could have been pulled form 750+, if that were so all-fired important. We have to say, clearly, something more is being sought.</p>
Then lets look at actual published statements from the colleges. Back in 2010, the Dean of Admissions at Duke wrote,</p>
<p>*"A student who scores a 750 out of a possible 800 in all three sections of the SAT—critical reading, math and writing—would likely fall in the 99th percentile for testing. But the competitive nature of its applicant pool means Duke admissions officers make a distinction finer than the top percentile in the nation.</p>
<p>Indeed, the threshold for achieving a five in each of the six evaluation categories is high. Receiving the full five points in test scores, for example, would require SAT scores that fall in the high 700s across all three categories, Guttentag said." *</p>
<p>So back in 2010, when Duke was notably less selective than it is today, a score of 750x3 = 2250 was not high enough to get the maximum rating in the test score evaluation category. This implies higher scores increase chance of admission at Duke, including at scores of above 2250, like I originally stated.</p>
<p>As I mentioned earlier, we only see pieces of the puzzle, not the full picture. But every piece I have seen suggests higher SAT scores continue to increase chance of admission beyond 2250 at highly selective colleges. Note that I am not saying having SAT scores this high is required for admission or even that having high SAT scores is very important — just that highly selective colleges generally do not treat a 2250 and 2400 as equivalent. Sure some selective colleges use different systems than others. Some may use a score cutoff or otherwise, but I certainly wouldn’t assume this when the pieces of evidence we do have suggest otherwise. </p>
<p>Yes, let’s look at actual statements from the colleges</p>
<p>
Notice how Harvard places less emphasis on SAT and ACT scores than other statistical factors, which may account for more than half the class having a perfect GPA, but having an average SAT of 2237.</p>
Do you realize that you quoted a reference to predictors of grades at Harvard in their internal studies, not a reference to importance of those criteria in admissions decisions? The quote mentions AP exams and college board subject tests are better predictors of Harvard grades than HS grades and test scores. Do you really think most selective colleges treat AP exam scores and college board subject tests as more important than HS grades and SAT I/ACT in admissions decisions? Even if they did, does that contradict anything I have written in my posts? Also note that my 2250 vs 2400 example was not a 50 or 100 point difference.</p>
<p>With two kids about to graduate from college, I know a little bit about what college’s look for. When my kids were accepted, they each received hand-written notes from their regional admissions directors at various schools including HYP and not one of them said “Wow, we love your test scores, so welcome aboard!” Instead, they raved about their essays, commented about their teacher recommendations and their websites that were submitted as supplements.</p>
<p>No amount of further discussion is going to convince you otherwise, and I don’t need to be convinced as my kids have already been through the process and won the Admissions lottery. But, I will leave you with this nugget.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I hope your way of doing things brings you much success. Best of luck to you!</p>
<p>Oversimplified: you look at scores and gpa. And then you turn the page. The job begins. And from that point through the end, you are either intrigued by the kid and excited- or lukewarm. Or it doesn’t add up, at all. </p>
<p>Harvard is looking for more than gpa predictive power. It’s simply “more” than that. They have 35000 apps, a good half of which (I estimate) could learn something and make it to a diploma. Now they cull rigorously. Non-stats expectations go up. It’s make or break time. Can’t find that in stats results. But you can assume those high stat kids who did get admits, made a great whole self presentation.</p>
You seem to be ignoring my posts and instead replying to things I did not say. I did not say test scores were very important. In fact, my earlier post explicitly stated, "Note that I am not saying having SAT scores this high is required for admission or even that having high SAT scores is very important… </p>
<p>
I’ve graduated. As mentioned in other posts, I was admitted to Stanford, MIT, and ivies as a prospective engineering major with an 800 math and 500 verbal. If you look at my post history, I’m often the first person to say that high scores are not mandatory for admission to selective colleges, and test scores are only a small part of admission decisions at many highly selective, holistic colleges. However, this does mean scores above 2250 or some other threshold are all equivalent, as stated in the original post that I replied to that triggered this tangent.</p>
<p>Thank you everyone for your feedback. I understand everyones perspective on this issue. When I said that I heard that anything above 2250 is considered the same, I was referencing not anything I heard directly from colleges or but rather posts by people on CC stating that. I personally was skeptical about the factuality of that statement, which I had seen numerous times, and was concerned that if it was actually was true, I would be short by 10 points and that those 10 points would have a lot of impact on the admissions decisions I received. </p>
Although Data10 has disagreed with myself and LookingForward, I would hope that all three of us would agree – 10 points on an SAT score will have absolutely NO IMPACT whatsoever on whether you are accepted, rejected or waitlisted.</p>
<p>The 2250 rule is something different. It’s basically saying that a 2250 and a 2400 are valued equally because one could have been the other on a different day and vice versa. So once you hit that 2250 threshold, your numbers don’t really matter anymore. </p>
<p>I think Data10 is correct, nowhere is he saying scores are be-all end-all. He’s just saying 2250 doesn’t = 2400, maybe it’s not a huge boost but the extra points seem to help a little bit. I think GPA is more important, and obviously you need to have great recs and essays; the difference between 2250 and 2400 won’t make up for gaps there but it could possibly help. </p>
<p>the “2250 rule” is perhaps the most idiotic thing perpetuated by the general populace of CC</p>
<p>2250 is not miles above a 2240 nor is it identical to a 2260. they are different scores because they are different - take the score as it is and not relative to any benchmark and they will make much more sense. if someone asked you is 89 lower than 90 they would say yes but by a small amount, whereas 80 is a decent bit smaller than 100 and would have a noticeable different if those numbers represented anything else than SAT scores in your mind</p>
<p>@metsfan27 the way I’m describing it, yes it’s true. College admissions see 2250+ as all the same. It’s definitely not a hard rule. Some schools may view it differently and even different admission officers among schools might view it differently. Think of it this way, say admissions were ranking each part of your application on a scale of 1-10. 2250+ would all be considered 10 whereas 2200-2140 may be a 9 and so forth. This is not to say that people with 9s can’t get in, it just means that once you get to 2250, your numerical score is irrelevant.</p>
<p>Everyone else seems to be talking about a different 2250 rule, which is definitely present on CC but doesn’t exist. I’ve had a lot of people on CC tell me I wouldn’t have a chance at my colleges unless I got 2250+ on my SAT. And for perspective, the only ivy I had on my list was Brown, so it wasn’t even like I was applying to HYPSM. You can browse though the college acceptance threads to see that this is not true at all. None of us are admission experts, so many CCers, after being on this website for so long and seeing many people with 2250+ get into HYPSM, have assumed that this is indeed a cut off. It’s not. These are regular people like you and I trying to beat colleges at the admissions game, and making these conclusions based off other applicant is the only way some people know how. </p>