<p>Hey everyone!</p>
<p>I am planning to ED for UPenn CAS, and am indicating International Relations as my prospective major. I am also a first generation college and low income student.</p>
<p>I took my SATs for the first time in January, and received 750 CR, 760 WR, and 600 M. I might retake it again in October, but in the case that I don't, how much will my math score hurt me?</p>
<p>Thanks in advance!</p>
<p>bumpity bump bump</p>
<p>I think it depends on the rest of the application. If you are an accomplished writer, for example, it may not hurt you at all.</p>
<p>The key question is: what have you accomplished that will cause the ad com to pick you out as the one applicant in ten that stands out?</p>
<p>If you know that answer, then the score may be less of a concern. However, if you are trying to build an applications overall strength, it would definitely help to improve it, and it would not be that much work.</p>
<p>@Much2Learn Thank you so much for your response! I am actually relying on my extracurriculars to give me a hand. I have divided my focus areas into five: Model UN, Debate/Speech, Women’s Rights, Politics, and Non-profit work. I hold significant leadership positions in all these areas, and have founded conferences/organizations. I try to do community service in things that are relevant to my focus areas (eg. rape relief shelter or local politican’s office), and am doing research for a girls’ rights book. I also rank regionally and provincially in speech and debate.</p>
<p>I don’t know though – people tell me that even if I have great ecs and essays, the math score will render it impossible for me to make it at UPenn. </p>
<p>bumpp</p>
<p>It does make it a little more difficult. Do you think it would be that difficult to improve it?</p>
<p>@much2learn I’ve finished the entire collegeboard blue book tests, in addition to all sat tests from 2006 to 2013. My score was hovering around 680 when I took with the January sat, but I somehow ended up with 600.</p>
<p>I will try to closely go over all the tests I have my hands on again and so the dr Chung math book. Hopefully that’ll push me to 700 then.</p>
<p>If you have already taken all of your subject tests, I would take the SAT again in October. They will consider your highest scores on each section. Your other scores are great, but a 600 in math is very low for Penn, like way below the bottom quartile (which is 700 by the way).</p>
<p>@poeme So basically, even if I’m going for a humanities major, a 600 in math will make it very difficult for me to get accepted? Even if I have really good ecs?</p>
<p>Yes I believe so. Like I said, a 600 in math is incredibly low for Penn. It’s at the point where it will definitely raise eyebrows. If it was closer to 700 they may not care as much but 75% of the incoming class scores 700 or above. That doesn’t even include kids who got admitted but enrolled at other schools.</p>
<p>Penn (especially CAS) wants you to be well rounded academically even if you have a strength in a particular area. For example, all of the students who were admitted from my high school that I can think took all of the hardest classes offered. That means that there are several people who ended up majoring in things like philosophy who still took (and got 5s) on Calc BC.</p>
<p>While being lopsided academically works out fine for specialized grad programs (they obviously didn’t care about my history grades when I applied to science PhD programs), it will not work for undergrad admissions at places like Penn unless you have something really spectacular to make up for it.</p>
<p>@Poeme Thanks! That makes it a lot more clear. I have taken the most rigorous humanities curriculum at our school, and have self studied 5 humanities APs and scored 5s in all (our school only offers Calc). However, I have not taken the highest level of Physics/Chemistry and have not participated in our school’s intensive Science Academy. Would I still be seen as having a rigorous curriculum? Thanks so much again!</p>
<p>With regard to rigorous curriculum, you need to discuss that with your counselor. If your GC does not check the box for “Most rigorous” box that will create a big challenge for you. Make sure that your GC understands your interests, and that you were prioritizing those interests and not just avoiding difficult classes. </p>
<p>@Much2Learn Thanks for the great advice! I will definitely be sure to schedule an appointment and talking about my interests etc. </p>
<p>I also think that it is fair to ask the GC whether she intends to check the most rigorous box. Usually they will tell you.</p>
<p>@Much2learn I go to a Canadian school where the bulk of the kids either don’t pursue a post secondary education, or go to Canadian universities. Thus, I am really not sure how much my counselor will know about applications for American schools (for example, not knowing rankings or school profiles). The counselors’ at our school’s biggest priority is making sure that people graduate – not attending Ivy Leagues (he kind of scoffs at me at times), so I am sometimes scared to approach him. </p>
<p>I will muster up the courage to have a one-on-one talk with him when school starts, and see what he says. </p>
<p>Again, thank you so much for taking the time to help me out here! Both of my parents have not attended universities so I’ve always struggled with the university application process (especially for American schools). </p>
<p>@ HvePassion</p>
<ol>
<li>I understand what you are saying. I have met counselors like yours, and understand both perspectives. You find it very frustrating, as you should, and they are overworked and try to convince students to finish high school and try community college. You are their last priority.</li>
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<p>The inclination is to avoid the GC, but I would try to visit with him/her regularly. I would talk less about a specific school and more about your interests and dreams. Show them your passion. Tell them what you want to do, and show them the work you have done with your EC’s and self study. Talk about some other schools you are interested in and make it about achieving your dreams and not so tied to one school. Be sure to smile and nod a lot and do not argue, no matter what. Just say, “I’ll have to think about that” or “I will investigate that more” and keep smiling.</p>
<p>The reason is that you need a strong reference from the GC. The more they know you, the better your chance of getting it. Consider it your first diplomatic assignment. ;)</p>
<p>Also, it is a good idea to develop a good list of colleges to apply to and they may be helpful at that. Almost no one should count on being accepted to Penn with the current admission rate at 9.9% and still falling. My D applied to 16 colleges, even though Penn was her favorite. </p>
<ol>
<li>Work on your math practice a little every day. Go over every problem that you miss and learn how to solve them. Similar problems come up on the test often. </li>
</ol>
<p>The belief that math is an ability is false. Math is primarily a matter of practice and effort. With all that you have done, I have no doubt that you can do it. The trick is to prepare like you are trying for a 780-800 score. If you make it, that is great! If you miss your target, you will still probably have a much better score.</p>
<ol>
<li>Have you had the opportunity to visit Penn? If not, and it is possible, schedule a visit. The experience will help you with your “Why Penn?” essay. Learn as much as you can about your potential major and the opportunities available at Penn BEFORE you visit. That will allow you to investigate more specifics while you are there and get more out of the visit.</li>
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<p>Also, be sure to take a lot of notes during the visit including details about specific things that impressed you or something that someone said. Write down things that you like, or the name of a person who said something that made an impression. Details like that make a better essay. They make it clear that you actually know something about Penn. That shows a higher level of interest and demonstrates that you are not just reusing the same generic essay for lots of schools like some applicants are. Be convincing to the admissions committee that you know Penn well, and be specific in explaining how Penn provides a unique opportunities that are a perfect fit for you. The better you can do that, the more favorably your application will be considered. If a visit is not feasible, use the website, and youtube videos of Penn administrators and alumni (A. Gut, Dean Furda, John Legend etc.)</p>
<ol>
<li>Have a back up plan and do not put all of your hopes on this application. You have a good chance of pulling this off. However, you need to work hard on this and hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. </li>
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<p>If you have passion and focus, and are willing to work very hard, I believe that you have a very good chance to pull this off!</p>
<p>@Much2learn Wow! Thank you so much for giving me advice! If I do get into an American school (or score highly on math), you’ll be the first person that I thank.</p>
<ol>
<li>Yes, I was (and am still) quite intimidated to approach him. I do a lot of MUN and debating, so I have often wondered why I am so introverted and shy at critical times… I do realize that counselor recommendations are extremely important in the university application process, so I will force myself (if necessary) to approach him. I will also make a mental note to be very polite and smile lots! </li>
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<p>I have always cautioned myself, since starting this process, that I should not harbour too much hope. There are many students who have perfect scores and GPAs, and I know that I am very lacking compared to them. I will still be applying for Canadian schools, and hopefully some other affordable American schools. If I don’t get into Penn, I think I will be very devastated, but oh well, life goes on. </p>
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<li><p>I think the biggest problem is that I have very little interest in math. My dad has always told me that if I tell myself that I like math, then I will gradually get better at it. And other people have told me that I’m lucky to be scoring poorly on the Math section and not the CR section – it’s definitely a practice hard, score well kind of thing. I think I will just force myself to spend 2-3 hours a day on math, and if that doesn’t work out, then I guess it’s just not meant to be. </p></li>
<li><p>I was accepted to Leadership in the Business World (LBW) this year, for the Philadelphia campus. I was really stoked to go, but realized that A. Even with the financial aid, there’s no way my parents can give me the remaining $2000 + flight tickets + allowance to go, and B. It would not be congruent to go to a business camp but indicate International Relations as my prospective major. I was pretty sad, because I REALLY wanted to see the campus. I have been working to save up flight money, so hopefully I will be able to go there to check it out. If I don’t, I suppose I will have to rely on online resources and ask my friends who go to Penn. I really do think that it’s a huge disadvantage that I won’t be able to see the campus before applying, but life isn’t fair. </p></li>
<li><p>Going through the stats of the classes of 2016, 2017, 2018 UPenn decisions, I fully understand that Ivy Leagues are a crapshoot, and that a backup plan is absolutely necessary. I will definitely make sure to create a feasible back up plan, and not put too much hope into my application!</p></li>
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<p>Overall, thank you so so so much for your words of encouragement and advice. It’s really nice to know that even though we have never met before, that you are willing to spend time to encourage, advise, and caution me. There isn’t much I can do for you but to say thank you. I really really do appreciate it – this has helped me a lot. Your children are extremely lucky to have you as their parent!</p>