<p>^Because they’re lazy.
At my school, a great majority of the kids in AP Calculus (AB and BC), AP Biology, AP Physics, and AP Government scores 5s on the exams. If I had actually studied instead of crammed in one night, I may have gotten a 5 instead of a 4 on my Environmental Science test (but I did get a 5 on AP Calculus!). The same applies to the more prestigious schools in my area. So many of the students there earn 5s that it’s actually quite “normal.” Some of my friends even take 8 AP exams in one year and manage to score 5s on all except one (AP Computer Science).</p>
<p>I suppose colleges want to screen students for diligence as well as for raw brainpower.</p>
<p>^^^I see what you are saying, but I complety disagree with that…</p>
<p>Aren’t colleges supposed to take the raw brain power and potential of students and MAKE the students work hard, MAKE the students push themselves to new levels, but MOTIVATING them…I need a college where the student body’s drive for excellence as well as encouraging professors will serve as my motivation, MAKING me push myself…</p>
<p>In high school, its hard to become motivated about school and getting good grades because other kids in your classes don’t work hard and the majority of kids tend to be very lazy…</p>
<p>This is an interesting thread for many reasons. My D1 is a junior at NYU and…
- as a training athlete, no time to take SAT prep courses. Her score: 2200
- She was an AP Scholar of Distinction - and contrary to a previous poster, her 5’s came in courses where she truly understood and loved the material. Memorization and spitback aren’t her strongpoints so the fact and figure type tests were where she got her 3’s.<br>
- She’s had a very successful honors career at NYU. So has one of her HS classmates, who scored slightly higher on everything (GPA, AP Tests, SATs). </p>
<p>We live in an affluent area(even though we personally live in the less advantaged historic zone). Our public HS has many AP courses, and a lot of the families pay for Sylvan/Kaplan or the like. From what I’ve seen, the kids that were driven, and had a true passion (athletics, politics, performing arts) managed to do what they needed to on the SATs, AP Tests, and SATII’s to get into the schools that fit them.
I really think the problem is with the “pay to play” outfits that encourage parents to plunk down big bucks to teach test strategy. Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter what the colleges decide - those with the finances will find a way to pay for appropriate coaching. I’ve even heard of parents that have paid professionals to produce “THE” college essay.
So - how do the colleges find the “diamond in the rough”? I think that schools like NYU might by trying, but I’m not sure the solution is apparent just yet.<br>
The closest indicator of collegiate success might be an hours log of how these kids spend their week, but how could anyone guarantee accuracy?</p>
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<p>For a rather large fraction of those many-exam takers, taking a lot of tests is highly correlated with the ability to post high scores. They take more tests because they know that they can and will attain 5’s on all or most of those tests. Very few people max out the SAT scale across the board, but doing so on five or seven AP’s is rather common in the population that uses those exams as admissions credentials. The AP grading scale is quite forgiving, and getting a 5 is not (and is not intended as) a test of cognition, speed or accuracy. An intelligent and ambitious student, such as one of the 4000+ per year who take AP exams in or before the 9th grade, can essentially guarantee a 5 by preparing with due diligence. At least for that population of students, it is purely a question of time allocation.</p>
<p>One problem with elevating the importance of APs in college admissions is that highschool curriculums are already dancing to the tune played by ETS and the College board: the most advanced classes in many highschools are pretty much test prep as it is. When the curriculum is prescribed by what’s on the AP, and a teacher’s success is based on how well the class does on the AP, you can bet that they are forced in to “teaching to the test” which is not good. Some of the best high schools have dropped AP courses, to give teachers and students more freedom. </p>
<p>So, ironically, this idea, to limit the power of the college board might instead increase it significantly.</p>
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<p>Other than Scarsdale, which is hardly a typical public high school, the schools dropping AP are elite prep schools or have highly selected student populations. The list below at an anti-AP site contains nary a “normal” public school.</p>
<p>[Welcome</a> to Excellence without AP](<a href=“http://excellencewithoutap.org/index.html]Welcome”>http://excellencewithoutap.org/index.html)</p>
<p>And there certainly are students at no-AP-course high schools who nonetheless take AP tests. The College Board makes the AP testing system very open to students whose high schools don’t offer AP-designated courses, to homeschoolers, and to self-studiers of all kinds. </p>
<p>I do see an assumption latent in several replies, that if a college (e.g., New York University) goes to a system of permitting applicants to submit test scores from any of several groups of permitted tests, that therefore all applicants at that college will necessarily have to submit AP test scores to be admitted. I wouldn’t expect that to happen for ALL applicants, as long as the college genuinely considers scores from other kinds of tests. Similarly, at any college today (except perhaps a state university with a rigid admission formula based on numerical criteria) it is possible for the admission committee to pass over a high-scoring student </p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/377882-how-do-top-scorers-tests-fail-gain-admission-top-schools.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/377882-how-do-top-scorers-tests-fail-gain-admission-top-schools.html</a> </p>
<p>in favor of a student with somewhat lower test scores who has other desirable characteristics. It’s generally a good idea to score well on standardized tests, and to me at least the test scores are persuasive evidence that the applicant has learned to read, do rather elementary math, and to gain knowledge about high-school-level subjects. But colleges that use the Common Application </p>
<p><a href=“https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/BecomeMember.aspx[/url]”>https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/BecomeMember.aspx</a> </p>
<p>(e.g., New York University) </p>
<p><a href=“https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/Members.aspx[/url]”>https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/Members.aspx</a> </p>
<p>promise to consider issues other than test scores when deciding on admission applications, and it is plain enough that they do.</p>
<p>It think it is ridiculous how people say the SAT and other Collegeboard tests are unfair. you want to know something, LIFE IS NOT FAIR. Stop complaining about it, and stop putting some action to make the system suite your needs.</p>
<p>My school only offers about a dozen AP tests, and almost all of the AP-crowd takes most of them.</p>
<p>By the end of junior year, an all-AP student would have about 5-7 exams depending on when they take required non-AP classes (a few are senior-only classes though). We have a few with all 5s, but it is pretty much impossible to be a national scholar or state scholar regardless of ability. We have a couple of national merit scholars and plenty of high SAT scores that make up for it.</p>
<p>If the SAT loses its status as a universal college readiness benchmark and AP tests take its place, students from my school would be unfairly barred from top schools, even if they are more than qualified. I’m sure this is the case in hundreds of schools.</p>
<p>O__O this is shocking. the SAT STAYS!! yes yes yes!! i mean cmon’ your score on the SAT is one of those things that you carry with you throughout your life!! if you’re in your 30s and able to boast that you got a great score on the SAT then that puts you in a special group of people. it’s soooo STUPID because colleges want more minority enrollment blah blah blah blah (no offense to minorities), but they’re ALL trying to recruit the dumb minority kids from the ghetto who can’t score well enough on SATs and everything else. sheeshhh i HATE “diversity” promotion. i HATE affirmative action bull. i HATE how there is more to getting into college than your academic achievements. it’s NOT like some people are just DEPRIVED of the SATs. SERIOUSLY. if you have the diligence, even if your parents are living on welfare, and you can barely afford food, then there is no excuse for you NOT to perform as well in academics. I mean, personally, my family is not rich, and i never had the privilege of getting private SAT tutoring or academic tutoring/guidance of any kind. i did EVERYTHING by myself because i was determined to succeed in school. </p>
<p>AND the UC schools are doing this bull too!! unbelievable! and the reason is that not enough hispanics and blacks are enrolled!! and why is this, according to their logic?? because the hispanics and blacks who don’t give a **** about their education “can’t” take subject tests blah blah blah…so subject tests are optional. </p>
<p>ya know where this college admissions is gonna go in the future??? if SATs don’t matter, grades won’t matter anymore. academics wont matter anymore. all that matters will be race as the urms will be excused from everything.</p>
<p>I’ve seen a couple of concerning posts.</p>
<p>AP is <em>not</em> taking the SAT’s place. The NYU article overall states that they are now taking into consideration and accepting different combinations of testing. Previously you had to take the SAT or SAT and 2 subject tests. Now they are giving alternative mix up options, such as the SAT reasoning test and 2 AP tests. People must keep in mind, the overall purpose of a test is to measure someone’s knowledge on the subject. Whatever colleges are accepting the SAT or the lalaland test, the overall purpose is for it to show if you did well on a test which could help further prove that you’re ready to attend.</p>
<p>There’s no worries, and I think quite a few people were taking this overboard. All in all, I’d like to see the majority of colleges implement a similar policy because this is more fair. You have to keep in mind, some people can’t afford SAT testing. Some schools pay for AP tests, therefore, the NYU 3 AP test policy could be to the advantage to someone who is academically talented but going through family financial problems. And to those who aren’t having financial problems, why would this matter? This isn’t affecting anyone in a negative aspect, it’s simply allowing alternatives.;)</p>
<p>~ Theos Rizos</p>
<p>Sorry, I just think the educational system would be better off withot AP courses. AP tests are fine, though many colleges are unwilling or, at least, not too enthusiastc about giving college credit, or at least college pllacement for high school work. College departments are perfecly capable of giving their own placement tests for things like languages, and, maybe, math. But at every level of development, you want to go back to fundamentals. I was a college English teacher and an AP English reader for years, and no one in my departmeent thought exempting students from freshman English for an AP score was a good idea.</p>
<p>This seems pretty simple. Take the ACT (with Writing) and call it a day!</p>
<p>Surely, if the AP really did take the place of the SAT, we’d see a big change in the number of AP courses taken, the preparation for AP exams, coaching, etc. For example, in my kids’ school, many take the US Government AP exam at the end of 9th grade. Most don’t prep too rigorously, although many get 4s and 5s. If it became really, really important to get all 5s on your AP exams, I wonder if a bit of the test mania would move down to earlier grades.</p>
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<p>Indeed. There is elasticity in demand for things that are perceived to be good for getting into college. I think currently many students underestimate how useful it is to take AP tests as an admission application strategy, which perhaps is why the number of AP National Scholars (students who have averaged scores of 4 across eight exams) is only in the hundreds by the end of junior year, and not in the thousands. I am amazed that some students spend all summer cramming for the SAT–doing nothing else, really–when there are many better things do do during a summer, nearly all of which are actually more persuasive to admission officers than getting another few dozen points per section on the SAT.</p>
<p>It is strange to insist on the fact that college-applicant AP National Scholars number “only in the hundreds” when the number is just under a thousand, and there are between ten and twenty thousand in the Scholar score range but on 5,6 or 7 AP exams.</p>
<p>There is nothing magic about eight exams: in the other thread, Stanford and MIT are cited as schools reporting 5-6 AP exams as “average” in their applicant population. One assumes that eight would be “above average”, though not unusually high. MIT gets over 10000 applications per year and Stanford around 30000, so it would be no surprise to learn that a few thousand of those are presenting top scores on five or more AP’s.</p>
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<p>That’s not really true. You can make plausible estimates based on some simple assumptions and aggregated data – see above in the thread. You can’t get perfect accuracy, but we are talking here about whether the crude qualitative picture is some number in the low-to-mid hundreds, or the same but in thousands, of applicants with perfect scores on 5,6,7 or more AP’s. A substantial fraction of the students taking that many AP can and do get all fives (with that fraction probably rising with the number of exams), and that is all that’s needed to ensure thousands of applicants with all-fives.</p>
<p>What is the role of assumptions, and what is the role of data?</p>
<p>The role of intelligent assumptions is to prevent stupidity in interpreting the data. Refusal to calculate (or estimate) doesn’t get one very far with data or anything else.</p>