<p>I was wondering about your male/female contention, but just got the list of NMSF at our school. Five boys and one girls - you might be on to something.</p>
<p>Dadx is probably correct, mathematically. But, methinks he puts too much emphasis on the test scores. Once a student achieves 700+ across the board, the adcom knows s/he can do the work of the most selective college. Then, it's on to the essays and other stuff. However, Engineering is a guy-thing, and high math scores are expected. Carve out the high math scores to the engineering programs or biz (eg, Wharton), and the liberal arts guys end up more in line with the liberal arts gals, IMO.</p>
<p>It's called Simpson's Paradox for those with AP Stat kids.</p>
<p>dadx, does that hold true for CR and W scores as well? Or do the men have higher overall scores due to the preponderance of perfect 800 Math scores amongst men? Also, the break point may be higher for the overall SAT, but I believe it is lower for GPA and many other factors. Isn't it true that girls face stiffer competition amongst themselves?</p>
<p>The SAT lists the probability for higher or lower scores on the student score report; ie on average a student with a CR score of 750 loses 10 points on a second testing with a 39% chance of scoring higher and a 52% chance of scroing lower. Yikes.</p>
<p>The CB only started sending all SAT scores a few years ago. With that rule change, it makes sense to take the PSAT twice while taking the SAT once or twice.</p>
<p>Yikes indeed. IME though if one score goes down the other goes up - so odds are less unfavorable than the might seem. My son has gotten a top score on a different section each sitting of PSAT or SAT.</p>
<p>Help me to understand this-</p>
<p>"One way to get a "free" shot at increasing your score is to complete ALL of your testing by fall of senior year, and then do one final retake of the SAT at the last sitting date that can make it to the colleges before they read the apps. If you don't like the score when you get it, just don't send the last one. It requires that you decline the free reports, and pay later if you liked it, but it serves the purpose of one last shot that you don't need to disclose."</p>
<p>So here you've already applied to a particular school. You're looking for a boost in the form of a better SAT1 score. So you take the test, get the results, if the results are favorable you then pay the fee and have the new test results forwarded to the college and your application is enhanced by new and better scores... or, if you don't score well, your application is not hurt as the institution is wholly unaware you took the test yet again. Is that right? </p>
<p>And a final question: How much higher would the score have to be to for you to inform the school of your new results.. a mere 10 points, 20 points?</p>
<p>cheers, I don't think it's a good idea for anybody to take the SAT just once (unless that person gets a 2400 :) ). The test is a real challenge in terms of endurance. The second time around, the student has a better idea of what to expect in terms of sheer length and the difficulty of staying focused for so long.</p>
<p>Personally, I'd send in new results if they were at all better. Even if one section went up 20 points and another down 20 points. It's still going to make you look better in whatever section you go up in. It's not that 20 points is statistically significant, or that it's likely to make a difference. But what if you get rejected? Wouldn't you always wonder if the ad coms had known about that slightly better score it might have made a difference?</p>
<p>I disagree, Marian. My d did very well on the first sitting (CR 760, M 720, W 770). Since there is no "score choice", we determined that the risk of getting lower scores in all the sections was too great to warrant worrying about and going through that kind of grueling test again. There was too much to lose and not enough to gain.</p>
<p>I know that schools say that they will look only at the higher score, and perhaps they will, but I didn't like the possibility that they would look at a high first score and lower second and deem the first one a "fluke". This way, without score choice, they see that she got it the first time, and these scores should be sufficient for any top LAC - she's at or above the 75% for all of them. (Of course, whether she'll get into them is another story for another day - I doubt that her SAT I scores will keep her out.)</p>
<p>If a kid gets 2300+ the first time out, taking it again seems ridiculous, and sends a terrible message about the kid (or at least I would think it was terrible). In one of those stories about a kid who got 2400/36, the kid had taken the SAT three times and the ACT four times; his penultimate SAT and ACT were something like 2270 and 34. I was much less impressed with him at the end of the article than at the beginning.</p>
<p>JHS,</p>
<p>I certainly agree that 3 or 4 times is too many, especially if the kid is doing both SAT and ACT, but my son insists on retaking SAT (just once) for the following two reasons:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Although the first SAT score is very high (760, 780 and 800), the lowest is math. It irks him considerably, because math is one of his strong suits. (He is enrolled in Calc III at a univ.) So, it is a matter of personal pride.</p></li>
<li><p>He is applying EA to MIT, where the 75th percentile math score is 800. His math score probably puts him below the mean.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I'm just curious if you think it is ridiculous to retake under any circumstances. (Mind you, the retake is not my idea, and I don't strongly support it.)</p>
<p>JHS, one additional note. Son never prepared in any fashion for the first SAT. No review of long-ago trig and pre-calc. Hence, he figures he is bound to improve the score with minimal effort. (Famous last predictions?)</p>
<p>If you read the MIT admissions blogs, you will see that they say (at least) that they don't distinguish between 760 and 800 on the Math SAT. There is some post gently ridiculing the notion that a student with scores like your son's would re-take the test. The math on the SAT is years behind where your son is, and he has ample validation for his math skills through his performance in actual college-level courses. So, yes, I think re-taking the SAT because he is embarassed by a 760 math score makes your son look a little silly and a little too attentive to fake achievement vs. real learning.</p>
<p>But that's just me. I am not an admissions officer, and never will be. I would think less of your son for re-taking the test if I knew he had done that, but not a whole lot less. I would just see it as a sign of immaturity and maybe conformism (with a side of anality), and I would look for signs that he was in fact self-motivated and engaged in learning, not just competitions.</p>
<p>(BTW, my son's scores were very close to your son's, and as far as I know he hasn't thought about re-taking the test for a minute. I have never even discussed this with him. So not all kids respond the same way.)</p>
<p>I don't disagree with you about this. I think re-taking is a sign of immaturity and conformism. Fortunately, I think his record speaks well of his self-motivation and engagement overall. But he is definitely into competition. So is MIT, despite anything they say. Did you ever look at the minimal PSAT math score for RSI applications? Don't bother to apply unless the math portion was essentially perfect. I think potential students get the message.</p>
<p>I'm with JHS about retaking for a 760. Remember that MIT asks teachers to comment on how students achieved their grades? by dint of hard work; memorization; grade-consciousness; brilliance. If I were an adcom, I would put someone who is bothered about a 760 in the "grade-conscious" category. Someone who achieved a 760 at first try, however, would be more impressive.
Also, it's worth remembering how many errors knock the scores down. Very few.</p>
<p>Well, I have two weeks to talk him out of retaking. I'll pass along the wisdom of parents who have been there.</p>
<p>Here's the blog entry I was talking about.</p>
<p>Selection:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Let me tell you one more story that I often relay. I was doing a regional reception in a city a few years back, and afterwards a student -- we'll call her Artemis -- comes up to me and tells me that she has a 760 on the Math SAT. As I was about to tell her that her score was just fine, she keeps talking, to inform me that she was going to take the test again, since "clearly" her score was "too low." I was like, "What?!?!" I "ordered" Artemis to not take the Math SAT again, and instead to have a picnic on that Saturday. Because to us, a 760 math is the same as any higher score she could receive on the retest.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Full entry: <a href="http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/standardized_test_requirements/whats_the_big_deal_about_402.shtml">http://www.mitadmissions.org/topics/apply/standardized_test_requirements/whats_the_big_deal_about_402.shtml</a> </p>
<p>760 on the math is 2 silly mistakes. My son is in a similar position - a math kid but his 800 is in CR. Aggravating, but hey maybe it makes him look well rounded. He's retaking because his Writing score was under 700. MIT says they aren't really looking at it this year, but that's less clear at other schools. I think he has a decent chance of improving his score as I thought the essay was given a lower grade than it deserved last year. And it doesn't improve what he's got is probably good enough.</p>
<p>I think it's really a different story if the kid wants to take it again, on his/her own initiative, to "prove" something to him/herself, rather than to try to "improve the scores" to get into a particular school. Or if the score is lopsided, and the kid really wants to improve a particular section that objectively could use improving, like mathmom's son. </p>
<p>On the other hand, you couldn't get my D near the SATs again for anything. Her rationale: Any school that thinks my scores aren't good enough is not a school I want to go to. And with her scores, I wouldn't even dream of pressuring her.</p>
<p>And of course, midmo, what happens if your S retakes and still doesn't get 800 in math?</p>
<p>Chedva, I asked him that, and he said "that's OK. If I have reviewed old stuff and still get the same score, then I'll believe the score accurately compares me with other students."</p>
<p>It doesn't matter what score he gets if he retakes. There will be no third Sat. morning devoted to this. On that we are agreed, going in.</p>
<p>JHS, thanks for the quote. I remember seeing that once before. I wish he had asked the interviewer he met with a couple of weeks ago for his opinion.</p>