Scheduling for freshman year

Parents Forum
1

<p>In a couple of weeks D will attend orientation (I will be there also doing parent things seperate from her) and as part of it, she will register for classes. I believe an advisor will talk with her (even if briefly) to help determine classes. I'm figuring the average class load these days is still around 15 credit hours or about 5 classes (am I wrong? - especially for a first semester). </p>

<p>I suspect she will ask me for some advice on classes to take. Obviously, her major and her honors program will help determine some of what she takes. Any advice for what TO do or what NOT TO do?????</p>

<p>Share your child's success or scheduling nightmare story...</p>

2

<p>It depends. (As always.) D's college, considered extremely rigorous, recommends three (yes, 3) courses for first-years. I encouraged her to take 3 to leave time for fun. She signed up for 4, plus a couple of ECs, did fine, and had time for fun anyway (and for her very first boyfriend). For her, college was practically a vacation -- her senior year in HS she had done nothing but study all day every day till midnight and beyond. So I guess she was overprepared and could coast a bit.</p>

3

<p>Could easily be 4 classes and 16-17 credits if there are calc and science... Honors at any school- hopefully more, not less for courses. With computer registration these days she can probably easily change her mind later. If her school runs things anything like UW-Madison it should be a great session for both of you. Think- parallel sessions, do not plan to see her at all during orientation unless they have student-parent combined sessions (ie, stay out of her way). </p>

<p>Storytime. Have had to ask son his courses, aside from math-physics, after classes start to know what he finally decided freshman year. Dropped philosophy from his schedule twice. Second semester we got a bill for a 3/4 time student- not an acceptable course load, he had dropped classes, added others after the billing... With computer scheduling a student may change their courses if a class they want finally has an open slot that fits their schedule. </p>

<p>Don't worry. Let your D choose, an honors advisor should be helpful, they can even tell students how to get into a closed section of a class, even if the option isn't used.</p>

4

<p>My only suggestion to your d would be to find a balance between challenging herself and bolstering her GPA. Especially if med/grad school is on the horizon, it's important not to get in over her head academically. My oldest d would have wound up with a higher GPA if she hadn't taken 17-18 credits each semester, twice including 3 sciences (and she's a strong but not outstanding science student). One of her reasons for piling up the credits was that she wanted advanced standing to be in a better position in the annual housing lottery. Her choice, but I personally don't think it was worth it.</p>

<p>If your d is going in with AP credit, she might consider whether she'd rather retake the class instead in some subjects. Even a 5 doesn't necessarily mean the student will be in a strong position to take the next level class (my 2 older ds had 5s in AP Calc but couldn't pull As in the next level in college). The same might hold true for Chem or Physics, depending on the kid and the quality of the AP classes in your high school.</p>

<p>I don't believe that students should design their college schedules simply to maximize their GPAs. It's important to stretch and explore in college, of course, and also important for the students to make these decisions themselves. But I do think that kids should consider carefully what the workload will be like, and cut themselves a reasonable amount of slack.</p>

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<p>All colleges have different course load requirements in order to complete degree requirements in four years and almost all colleges have suggested 4 yr schedules posted on their web page or in the on line college catalogue. If your student knows what department she will be starting out in, go to that departments web page to see if they have a program of study posted. if not search "college catalogue" to see if one is posted there.</p>

<p>By the time my son showed up at his frosh orientation, he had a 4 yr program all planned out. Though it changed significantly since, he knew what freshman courses he needed to take before arriving and his choices were okayed by his compsci/cogsci advisors during orientation.</p>

6

<p>A few pointers:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Know what the minimum courseload is to be a full-time student. Your daughter should not go under this minimum even if the college allows it because it can screw up seemingly unrelated things. She may need to be a full-time student to be on your family health insurance, for example. She may also need full-time student status to get the good student discount on your auto insurance. My son, a college junior, is heavily involved in a research project and has credits to burn thanks to AP courses and heavier-than-average schedules in his first two years. But I have to insist every semester that he MUST take at least 12 credits.</p></li>
<li><p>Suggest that your daughter look at the college's Web site to determine when the deadline is for dropping courses (not add-and-drop, just drop). It's probably quite late in the semester -- perhaps even halfway. It might be a good idea for your daughter to take one course more than the minimum, giving herself the option of dropping one course after a few weeks if the courseload proves to be too heavy or if a particular course proves to be a poor choice. (Learning to cover one's own backside is one of college's most important lessons.)</p></li>
<li><p>If your daughter is at a large university, where different versions of courses are offered for the benefit of different populations, and if she herself is not a premedical student, she should avoid like the plague taking the versions of courses that are intended for pre-meds. The competition in those classes is gruesome, and many of the students are overqualified. (Pre-meds routinely take introductory courses over even though they have taken AP courses in the same subjects in high school, both to be thoroughly prepared for the MCAT and to get As in the courses.) Your daughter will probably need to take some science courses for distribution/general education/whatever her college calls it. But the general chemistry or general biology courses intended for students who want to fulfill the pre-med requirements are not the best choices. My son accidentally ended up in a general chemistry course designed for pre-meds and prospective chemistry majors his first semester, even though his major is computer science. The course was very difficult and took up an inordinate amount of his time. He also got a disappointing grade. He was taking the course only to fulfill a general education requirement. He would have been far better off in a course that the pre-meds don't take, like geology or astronomy, or in a less intense version of general chemistry.</p></li>
<li><p>If your daughter is picking classes "in a few weeks," she may not yet have her AP scores. This requires careful consultation with an advisor since her course needs may change after she receives her scores.</p></li>
<li><p>There are Web sites out there where students evaluate their professors. (Google the words "rate" and "professors" to find a well-known one.) Sometimes the same course is taught by more than one professor. Your daughter might want to have a list with her of the preferred and less-preferred professors for those courses. Her friends may think she's crazy if she signs up for the 9 AM section of Introductory Whatever, while they are all signing up for the 1 PM section, but they will envy her later when they find out that they are suffering through a miserable semester in a course taught by Dr. Mumblemouth, while she is enjoying the same course with Dr. Articulate.</p></li>
</ol>

7

<p>Sorry about the double post, but the system won't let me edit it anymore.</p>

<ol>
<li>Realize that, to some extent, the orientation advisors are going to try to sell your daughter courses that may not be exactly what she wants, especially when it comes to situations where she has choices. They're not going to prevent her from taking the prerequisites for her major, of course. But when it comes to courses that merely fulfill some sort of general education requirement, they may try to exert some influence.</li>
</ol>

<p>They're kind of like salespeople in appliance stores. The boss tells them, "Make sure to give the customers what they want," but the salespeople also know that there are only two of the extremely popular Model A dishwashers in the back room and that the store is grossly overstocked on Model X dishwashers, which the boss is eager to get rid of. So the salespeople do their best to convince customers that the Model A isn't as great as they thought it was and that the Model X is the one they really want. Even though the Model X is pink.</p>

<p>Orientation advisors do the same thing. This is how my naive son ended up in General Chemistry for Premedical Students and Other Masochists. Due to some complicated situation involving a placement exam score, he was not eligible for one of the courses that he had planned to take. The advisor suggested that he get an extra general education requirement out of the way instead, and he chose science. Then the advisor sort of manipulated him into Chemistry 666 (not its real course number). The advisor did it because this course was undersubscribed, while some of the others were filling up rapidly (with students who knew enough to just say no to that chemistry course).</p>

<p>Like the appliance salespeople, the orientation advisors may be overstocked with some products (seats in particular courses) and understocked with others. So beware.</p>

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<p>Every school is different. D's school expects only 4 courses, as it is very demanding, and virtually all classes have outside requirements that take time, just like the science labs, like watching movies and writing critiques, or getting together for foreign language practice and creating magazines, etc. You have to get special permission to take 5 classes. Leave it to D and advisor. But have her check the offerings in the catalogue before she goes, so she has an idea of what she would like to take.</p>

9

<p>I think Marian offered many good pointers. With 2 kids in college, it's been interesting to note the very different advisement experiences they've had.
In short, I'd add these things:
1. Learn what's offered and what the general requirements are. Develop a "tentative schedule" with some back-ups.<br>
2. Consider signing up for one more class than meets the full-time student requirement.</p>

<p>Details:
I would get familiar with what's available this fall...most college websites will have online fall schedules with class names, professors, etc. It's important that your D be knowledgeable. My S did not have hands-on advisement and thankfully he and I together had done our research upfront. We reviewed info together and he put together several schedule options with some back-up classes in case they fill up before you can get in. Happens all the time.</p>

<p>One thing S's school DOES advise students (rightfully so) is to sign up for one more class than full time. For example, if 12 hours is fulltime status, sign up for 15 hours. This gives the student the opportunity to drop a class without dipping below fulltime. It turned out to be useful in S's 2nd year. D has learned her college catalog backwards/forwards and knows the rules very well. S has not done that. In the end, if your D gets bad advice, she is the one who pays the price. </p>

<p>Have her take responsibility, early, for learning the ropes. It will be worth it. We did some searching early to get familiar with things enough to be of help to S. </p>

<p>Luckily, her advisement is much more hands on. At her college, students can't even register for the next semester without having advisement sign-off--EACH TERM. But Even our D(rising senior) still calls us with questions regarding certain class decisions.</p>

10

<p>Great advice guys thanks...!</p>

<p>Her school is a small private so will not have several selections as far as profs teaching a certain class. Online they do have a list of suggested classes for her major and hopefully with the honors program being small (only 30 freshman) that will help direct her course. Also like the idea of her taking some time with the course selection book. </p>

<p>As I'm sure many of you can relate to, with the many $$$ being invested here, I hate to have her waste her time or energy on a bad decision - but I guess sometimes that's part of the process. If she prepares ahead of time a bit, hopefully it will pay off.</p>

11

<p>I second taking one more course than the minimum. My S didn't want to add in that one hour PE class for first semester freshman year but I really pushed it. It was a good thing because after a few weeks in Calc. with a grad. student whose accent he couldn't understand, he decided to drop the class ( a 4 hour class). If not for the measly one hour PE class, dropping the calc. would have put him below the fulltime minimum (12 hours) and his scholarships would have been dropped.</p>

<p>Also I would tell your D not to get panicked if every class is not available to her in the exact order as laid out in the course catalog. It can almost always be fit into her schedule later on down the road. Just look for required classes that she can replace the unavailable class with. S (rising jr.) will be taking a freshman health class this coming fall (a grad. requirement) because it just didn't fit in his schedule 2 years ago.</p>

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<p>Best thing i can say as an actual student is DO NOT cram all of your GE courses into first semester or first year, your going to want those courses junior/senior year to break your major courses which will be upper div and tough. A GE humanaties or soc scie will be a welcome change. Save the easy GEs for last.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
Best thing i can say as an actual student is DO NOT cram all of your GE courses into first semester or first year, your going to want those courses junior/senior year to break your major courses which will be upper div and tough. A GE humanaties or soc scie will be a welcome change. Save the easy GEs for last.

[/quote]

Hmmm. Good advice in some cases, maybe not in others. D's adviser, and upperclass students she has consulted, recommend the opposite -- "get those general ed requirements behind you as quickly as you can." By junior-qual time, nobody wants distractions from their major. By senior thesis time, ALL their energy goes into the major and nobody wants to dink around with that stuff.
At D's college, all first-years are required to take Humanities, which serves as common social glue as much as anything. The remaining course load (two courses recommended) should be GE requirements, although for math/science majors that's gotta be math and science.</p>

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<p>^ wow totally different school system from our school.</p>

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<p>We are also going to orientation in Ohio next month, but D's school is public, so I guess it's not the same one. Is this an Ohio thing? Neither of my s's had early registration/orientation. She also has to determine her courses without parents present. My oldest S did his registration online, and we all sat and poured over the course catalog to help him find courses that fit his major, interests, and schedule. (Rising freshman semester only.) I am a little distrust-ful [edit to thwart censor] of D's school's motivation for excluding parents for the first go-round.</p>

<p>When we were helping her look/decide which school to attend, I spent quite a bit of time on this particular school's website, studying the catalog and core requirements and major requirements. Since she wants to double major, and the school has extensive core requirements, it will be a challenge to fit everything in. She is not very assertive by nature. I want to give her lots of options on paper, so she has a written list of what will further her goals and what will not. I am hoping she will have enough moxy to insist on something that will not derail her chances of finishing in 4 years. She is the only one of the 3 to attend a public school, and I am really nervous.</p>

<p>I have heard that it is possible at her school to "appeal" directly to the teacher for courses that are full. I would rather have her try this than fill up her schedule with busy work.</p>

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<p>My S's large public U has each kid talk to an advisor and then they are shown how to use the online registration site. When he went for orientation, they already had him registered for a math and an english course so all he had to do was fit a couple more in. Some classes were already "closed out" because there had been several earlier orientation sessions so alternate choices were made. The good thing is that nothing is carved in stone (at least at his school). Once he got home from orientation he was able to sit at our home computer and rethink things and do some droppoing and adding to his schedule. The kids pick it all up easily and quickly become pros at navigating the system. S was leery of the appeal thing. As a first semester freshman he was more of a bird in the hand kind of guy. If the school is a large public there will be many sections of hundreds of classes available. They can always find something available to fulfill a requirement.</p>

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<p>binx- remember it is your D, not you, that is going to the school. I hope your D spends as much time as you did preparing for her registration. With computers it is very easy to modify choices after orientation/registration. Computers, however can't let anyone "break the rules", advisors can. It is very important to back off and let the student discover how to do things. Trust your D to rise to the challenge, and trust the school to help her make the decisions- they are used to all types. She chose the school and will probably do a lot better than you think. Most public U's probably will have summer orientation, since the majority of their student population is in state making an extra trip to campus is not a hardship. It gives more time to adjust to the coming school year. UW-Madison has room assignments ready and gives a model room tour in the actual dorms assigned (they even separate parents from students during the room visit)- nice to see. They also separate the students from the parents for most sessions/activities. This was great, as students need to know different things, and both need to ask questions without the other present.</p>

<p>The above said, there is no harm in giving suggestions to your D, pointing out possibilities, if she will listen to you- as long as you realize it will be HER choice.</p>

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<p>Binx, regarding your distrust of the motivations of the public school for excluding parent from the registration process -- I suggest you read the thread called "A rant" started by Tako for an idea as to why they may want parents out of the picture. I know you well enough online to know that you want to help your daughter reach her goals, not yours.... but I am sure that there are many other students whose parents are focused on their goals that junior become a doctor or engineer, when junior would rather be a poet or a philosopher. So its one of those situations where it is best to leave parents out of the process.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that no matter how much you have studied the catalog, the catalog is not always accurate in terms or procedures or practices. In other words, the advisors may know some things that you don't -- and your advice could well turn out to be wrong. In any case - things change, so it's not really worth it to stress too much about getting all requirements planned carefully in freshman year. For example, my daughter's college recently announced that relaxing some of the requirements in the Russian department ... so now my d. is considering a minor where she wasn't considering it before.</p>

<p>Also, I agree with wis75 -- I'm sure your daughter will figure things out on her own. Keep in mind that somehow your daughter managed to navigate 3 years of high school in Germany when she started out not even speaking the language -- and somehow she survived! Dealing with a public university where her advisers and profs all speak English is going to be easy by comparison. </p>

<p>Finally, keep in mind that young people who are not very assertive tend to get a lot more assertive when their mom is not around. And if it is all that difficult to double major at her college, she may simply revise her plans -perhaps considering a minor instead.</p>

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<p>S is at an in-state public that many in our area attend. After acceptance, he did a weekend campus visit with a friend then over the summer drove to Orientation with a different friend, a girl he knew from h.s. so once they got there, they pretty much parted ways and were on their own. Lots of kids here do it that way. The school is H's alma mater so he didn't feel compelled to go to Parent Orientation and S really wanted to be on his own anyway. I never went until move-in day in August. </p>

<p>This is all to say that the people at the college are very used to new freshman showing up alone needing guidance. </p>

<p>While it may appear daunting at first, your D will figure it out in a snap and then be confident when she goes back in the Fall because she has already navigated the system once on her own. Better for her to do without you for the first time when the Orientation counselors are there to help and answer questions. Besides, it's really easy for her to call you on her cell phone if she has a major dilemma. </p>

<p>Gently remind her that in college she has to be her own advocate. S had an AP credit that was not required for his major but was directly related to it so he asked his advisor if there was any way he could use it for a required elective credit within his major. Guess what? Advisor said sure, typed it in and sent it to registrars office and bingo, S got 6 hours of elective credit all because he had the nerve to ask. Good luck to you Binx. Your D will be fine.</p>

20

<p>Thanks for the comments and encouragement. I do have some worries - hopefully they are unreasonable. But I'm also afraid I didn't explain myself very well. </p>

<p>I poured through the catalog prior to her decision in order to check that her college goals were possible at that particular school. It was not her first choice school, and I didn't want to encourage her to take the best financial school if her <em>dreams</em> were not possible there. (Also, it was much less of a financial bargain if a 5th year was involved.) At the other schools, she was not going to be a music performance major - but at this school, they tied the money to it. So it was necessary for us to know that a second major would be possible, or it wouldn't be worth it. What we learned is that it is do-able, but tight. She will have a few extraneous credits to allow her to "look around" but not many. Scheduling will be important.</p>

<p>So no, she has not yet done the same sort of work I have done. I don't mean to imply that I wish to do anything for her, or that I don't believe she can do it. But at this point, I know a lot more than she does. Sometime in the next 3 weeks, I want my D to explore some of these things herself, so she has some ideas going in. </p>

<p>I do agree that counselors should be more qualified than moms to help first year students. I just don't think they care as much about her finishing in 4 years, and we can't afford (literally) for her to get behind. Since she is not officially listed as a double major (can't, till later), the counselors are not going to be working toward fitting courses into both majors; only music and core. </p>

<p>She doesn't know what her second major will be yet. I would like her to "taste" some things early on, to allow her to select core courses that fit with what she might like to study in depth. For example, I discovered that intro to linguistics counts as a <em>math</em> core course. She can satisfy that core and find out more about one of her interests. The counselor might be more inclined to say, "You need math; here's one that will fit in your schedule." It might not be intuitive to D to say, I want linguistics for my math course.</p>

<p>I am hoping my uneasiness with the school is misguided. Our track record isn't great. D sent them several emails in April (while trying to chose a school), to various departments, asking questions, and never, ever received any answer. (We later heard that the school was having trouble with email.) She emailed her admissions counselor with questions and got an immediate response: Sorry, I'm leaving for vacation in the morning and don't have time to answer, ask someone else. </p>

<p>Maybe those were just flukes. Maybe they're better in person. I do think she is going to have to be her own advocate, but I'd like to help keep the learning curve to a minimum.</p>