Former corporate lawyer here/T-13 alum. Seriously reconsider law school. It is an awful experience, overrated education, and the profession is increasingly down the tubes in its demands and finances, even at the high end. If someone has what it takes to become a big law equity partner (a 1 in 100 prospect not worth counting on), he or she should do something more interesting and lucrative. Same if someone has what it takes to be an associate for 2-4 years.
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Oh wow this is scary! My D has watched me be a lawyer for a number of years (took off 10 years to take care of her when she little, returned to an interesting [and a bit unique] job). I also loved law school (as hard as it was!), enjoyed all my legal jobs (about 5-6 different areas, including part-time in law school). Many of my friends from law school are quite successful in different realms (some not so much, but they seem the minority).
But I graduated before the 2008 ‘legal restructuring’ (didn’t know that was a thing that came from that market downturn!).
There are so many areas of law that I was hopeful my D would have some wider career choices if she went that route.
Statistically, lawyers beat dentists in terms of rates of depression, alcoholism, and divorce. Firms, whether large or small, are sad places. If she wants the public interest route consider social work or teaching or policy in DC/state government. If any debt is taken these routes are hard to pursue. Even with IBR the tax bomb will wipe out any financial stability down the line.
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I do a bunch of work with lawyers (mostly as an expert witness, so I just get to see the “fun” stuff). I do agree that the big firms are really painful places to work, Sundays in the office were taken for granted (one partner told me how she shipped multiple boxes of documents for review whenever she went on vacation, even on her honeymoon, unsurprisingly a divorce followed).
The high end (trial oriented) litigation boutiques seem more interesting (though super intense) but the level of competition to get there nowadays is extreme: one junior lawyer I worked with was top of her class at Stanford, while the other was heading off to clerk for the Supreme Court, and the partner was former assistant DA in NYC. You not only had to attend an elite law school but needed to be top of your class there, even though the old timers who founded the firm didn’t have that pedigree.
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Crediting all of this. The financiers/bankers make more money doing more interesting work. As they get more senior their hours get better. Lawyers actually have worse hours at the partner level. There is slightly more autonomy though. Awful awful career path I wish on no one. Also you basically have to live in a large city to do the elite work you described, with few exceptions. Doctors can make good money anywhere in the county.
Again from my vantage point the same rule tends to apply: the big firms are miserable places to work, and my experience has been that the junior bankers have worse hours than the lawyers on any deal. Maybe it equalizes a bit more at the top, but in finance it seems top executives usually have to endure non-stop travel.
The interesting places are smaller boutiques or private equity, but they are incredibly focused on prestige, you need a top school pedigree, plus a stint at McKinsey, Goldman etc.
Law is not the awful career a certain poster is making it out to be. It’s definitely much more intellectually stimulating than banking (the bankers work for me, so I’m very aware of what they do). I’ve been in biglaw my entire career (worked my way up), have worked on some very interesting cases, and have had a life, though there are intense periods, especially as you near trial. Again, so long as the student has realistic expectations, it’s a great career path. Avoid sweatshops; I have. And the money doesn’t hurt. I can comfortably retire before 50 if I so choose and that’s after a good amount of debt. My classmates are all doing wonderful things with their law degrees and enjoy their careers. I wouldn’t discourage going to law school. I do let students know how different the reality is from TV.
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It is not more stimulating than finance. Most big law attorneys are in transactional. You are a glorified paralegal redlining Microsoft word documents, the economics of which you have no understanding, hence you went to law school because that comp lit degree from a NESCAC didn’t carry much weight. Your clients want none of your business acumen, because you have none. You have nothing to contribute except CYA procedure for rep and warranty insurance. For potential lawyers: look at an SEC filing or P&S agreement that is 120 pages. See what can be tweaked, check that the cross-references and flow of funds match up. Do this for ten hours. Then imagine doing this six days a week for the rest of your career. Bankers actually have to understand the deal and aren’t paper pushers. Being an Excel monkey is a superior existence than being limited to Word.
I understand you are in litigation, which most T-13 lawyers will not do. That is way more competitive than corporate with far worse exit opportunities. The banks do not “work” for you. No bank works for a lawyer, none of them would trade places with you; many of your co-workers in law would trade places with them. See how many lawyers go to Wall Street Oasis, then see how many bankers are on law forums begging to get to law school (lol). The client runs you around and you have to turn on a dime for them. They are never happy to speak with you because you are a white collar janitor cleaning up their mess in pre-trial, and that small talk they pay for in six minute increments infuriates them to no end.
Most T-13 attorneys regret joining the profession. A lot had the firepower to do something in business or medicine or something substantive. This thread is too kind if anything: So you want to be a NY Corporate Associate? Forum - Top Law Schools
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Sorry you had a terrible experience. Sounds like you didn’t know what you were getting into.
“Most” biglaw attorneys, or “most” T14 grads, are a transactional practice, not litigation? That does not compute. (I don’t have time to check something more recent or reliable though google indicates about a third transactional, which would correspond to what I remember from having been a litigator.)
That said, as an econ major who could have been a spreadsheet monkey, that’s certainly another way to go. Every path has its plusses and minuses, including law and finance.
More for the conversation further above: just an observation from olden times, there are certain intellectually-stimulating practice areas that are, as a practical matter, primarily available in biglaw (or boutique spinoff), and accordingly, largely comprised of T14 grads.
Wasn’t terrible. Just underwhelming for someone with good undergrad and pre-law professional credentials. I also take issue with anyone on the internet sweetening up the legal profession which is usually a horrible decision for anyone with other options.
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Big firms skew heavily towards corporate, it is more lucrative. F500 colonies have smartened up and realized litigation is a huge waste of time, money, and energy. They are doing more bottom barrel arbitration and cutting out litigation entirely. From a financial perspective, you lose when you win in most circumstances.
Those intellectually stimulating areas, like appellate practice and IP, are harder than ever to get and over saturated. Your odds are better in crushing an Econ BA GPA and getting into IB.
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There are trends or “seasons” in litigation. Whether the client loses when they win depends on the structure of the fee agreement. They just need to find the right firm. Biglaw reimagined, i.e., boutiques.
IB isn’t for everyone either, though. I could probably have stomached it, and while one of my kids may end up in that direction, I’d probably point another one away from it.
I appreciate the perspectives here - in such a diverse career field with many different types of people involved, there are bound to be vastly differning experiences.
That being said - I have valued and been enriched by every single job I’ve had in the law - they’ve been interesting and I’ve worked with many wonderful, dedicated people. Some jobs skewed more to money (corporate inhouse) others more to public policy, others to litigation.
I’m just getting nervous thinking my D might be entering into a fundamentally different world of opportunities.
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Yes, boutiques have displaced some of big law because they can be cheaper (due to less overhead) and provide more expertise. That said, there are fewer cases that are “big law appropriate.” Current law students and recent grads have increasingly stated a preference for corporate when recruiting because there are more slots, a correct perception litigation is downsizing, and an understanding that corporate leads to more in-house roles whereas litigation is difficult to transition away from a firm.
IB is not for everyone, I agree. That said, there is coding, medicine, F500 management programs, there is so much more than law that you can do with only a BA.
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It does sound like you have had an enriching career and that is probably reflective of both your skills and ability to discern what a good role is. I think you are right that it is a fundamentally different world of opportunities, the firms do not train juniors except for the most niche functions and there are fewer generalist type careers you have enjoyed yourself (most people under 40 would be very envious you pulled it off). Some people “should” still become lawyers, I just think it is more 1 in 25 or 1 in 50 for students currently enrolled in top law schools or recently beginning to practice. If she goes in with 0 debt (and you don’ deplete savings paying for her tuition) then the damage is mitigated somewhat. A law degree actively closes many doors for positions outside law that she can obtain now, that is the main non-financial risk. Harvard law students are not wants in IB, FAANG, REPE, or other lucrative paths.
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It’s important to keep things in perspective: the reality is that many, if not most, jobs aren’t that exciting. Most are…jobs. It’s a way to pay the bills while you make the most of it. It is possible to perform very well at your job while having other priorities(e.g. family) in your life.
And regarding “Big Law”; the reality is that unless you graduate from a top law school, or from a lesser law school with a federal clerkship, you won’t get a Big Law job. For the vast majority of law school graduates, it just isn’t an option.
And the other reality for most law school graduates is that if they want a law job, they’ll be entering a buyer’s market where they’ll need to take what they can find. It’s pretty rare for the average new JD to get multiple job offers. So it’s not a sure thing…but outside the healthcare field, what professions are a sure thing?
Anyone contemplating attending law school ought to:
- Consider the cost in both actual dollars and years spent getting the degree, and
- What the job prospects are; the ABA has a collection of “required disclosures”: Standard 509 Disclosure
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Edited to remove an expletive that is commonly found on forums for attorneys (Reddit School of Law/Outside the Law School Scam/Top Law Schools Forum) after somebody flagged it. The term refers to non-big law/non-elite boutique positions.
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I’d be interested in learning more about these non-law ‘lucrative paths!’ My experience with all the multiple paths in the business world is somewhat limited (inhouse was during law school). The most I’ve been able to do for my daughter is generally encourage her to take some tech and business classes during undergrad.
I asked some folks I know in extremely interesting IT jobs (data analytics - worldwide training; IT security/professor) about what undergrad majors/classes would help with those fields - interestingly, they told me econ and psychology! I’m not sure if that’s practical, though…perhaps those classes are what they thought helped them, but were actually the layer on top of some very substantive tech classes…?
Maybe I should start a thread - alternate career paths for those contemplating law school? LOL.
The issue with some of the biz areas suggested is (I think?) one would need to like/be good at math = and many law school hopefuls are not particularly enamored of/strong in that area.