NJParent, that’s true. Although in my state, the restaurants are under a pretty amazing protocol (my child is working at one), that clearly matches any sort of special training that my kid’s college dining hall will undergo. I have to say, not only reading the newly developed guidelines for restaurants that our state has put out (and they additionally have “investigators” checking up), but more so having my child working at one and coming home and telling me about all of the changes, has made me much more comfortable with restaurant dining (at this point I”m only happy with outdoor dining and obviously takeout, but when our state numbers of cases drops further—we’re currently on a great downward trend—I’ll be ok indoor dining at limited capacity in spacious restaurants, too). So I definitely see your point, although I will continue to view it as a pretty minuscule to zero risk to do takeout (assuming other states also have rigorous new protocols and such contact-less pickup). In states where case are rising, or which experience a significant uptick, comfort levels would definitely be different.
But I guess my post had 2 questions, and the bigger one was why can’t they eat in the dining hall on a capacity-restricted basis if people will be eating in restaurants this fall on a capacity-restricted basis? Most dining halls are far more airy & spacious than restaurants, from my college tour memories. (The 2nd question relates to if they forced to do takeout-only, why be limited to the sub-par, over-priced school food). I would be happiest if they can figure out some version of dining in—I view that as more social and collegiate, even with distancing and more space—you will see more people even if you have to chat at a distance. I’m happy to see that some schools are working on versions of this, but it seems many schools are saying “takeout-only” which strikes me as strange and a bit early to throw in the towel on that one).
My D is taking a summer language intensive- a year of a language in seven weeks. They had their first exam yesterday. Part of it was the teacher dropping into individual “rooms” for a one-on-one conversation portion. The rest was written and the teacher very bluntly told them he wasn’t policing them. If they wanted to cheat then they do them because he was too busy doing the oral portion to watch them like a hawk… and that they’re only cheating themselves since the goal is to learn the language- you either learn it or you don’t, and if you cheat your way through it’s your money and your 20+ hours a week you’re wasting. My daughter was floored- her regular college has a thorough and respected honor code. She didn’t even have her books on the same floor as her… and she couldn’t understand why someone would cheat at this. I, on the other hand, am sure someone took him up on that.
It’s not only this latest announcement but how they have conducted themselves these past 3 months. For example, earlier this month they created a detailed 14 page plan on how to bring faculty, staff, and administrators back to campus this late spring. You can tell they put a lot of time and thought into how best to “re-open” campus, safely. I posted the key requirements some time ago in CC.
For this latest announcement, some key highlights:
finals done by Thanksgiving. Some colleges are having students continue online learning in December and taking finals online. Not ideal in my opinion. I think Duke’s approach is the correct one.
emphasis on personal responsibility and the Duke Compact to make the new policies and procedures work. I read this to mean that the university will discipline students who do not comply with these rules and will take disciplinary action as necessary. The university is not messing around.
students are expected to remain in the Durham area throughout the semester which will limit the transmission and spread of the virus.
“immersion” periods when students come to campus to complete lab, or lab-type, components of courses, immersion. I think they are showing the importance of having in-person meetings, learning and education as much as possible.
daily monitoring of students health and requirements for mask wearing in most areas.
To summarize, I’m pretty confident that they are going to get this right. The have the leadership, funds, and support of the community for the makings of a successful academic year.
Lastly, when you look at colleges like Duke versus my local state colleges (e.g. CSUs), their approach is worlds apart. For example, in early May the CSUs decided no students on campus and all online instruction for fall and likely spring. They really didn’t even give on campus learning a shot at being able to work. Maybe they don’t have the funds to property care for their students and think it’s “ok” to be a commuter university system, but you can really see the differences in how well funded private colleges can handle things in a time of crisis and which colleges just can’t or won’t do it.
And even some of the UCs (ex. UC Berkeley) won’t even guarantee housing for freshman. What a disappoint IMO.
Let’s see how this all shakes out this year. The creme will rise to the top…
On a different point, reading UVA’s recent note, a few other schools, and hearing about my alma mater’s plans, it sounds like at many schools, faculty who feel at risk will have the option to teach remotely if they so choose. I think there are a few versions of this, but my alma mater will automatically give that option to professors over the age of 60, and will also work with professors under that age who have a health risk. Since the data someone posted above I think showed only around 15% of professors are over the age of 60 (I think??? I can’t find it right now but I’m sure you all read the same thing), if we add in another 10%-25% for younger professors who feel like they have a health risk that prevents them from returning, there still could be a majority of professors who could return to campus at low risk (with social distancing, masks, enhanced cleaning, etc). I definitely appreciate schools giving faculty the options.
If the local conditions/regulations permit and some forms of social distancing are possible in the dining hall (e.g. by installing plexiglass partitions on dining tables), the college would probably accommodate. My S stayed on campus this spring term, food was the only thing he complained a little bit about (mainly the lack of options). Under the current conditions, cafeteria/dining hall workers have much higher workload as they have to package meals for students to take out, so it’s quite understandable they have to limit the number of choices.
You also need to remember, things that are proposed currently may change in 3 or 4 months. Heck, even in pandemic conservative LA county, they have opened up the restaurants and hair salons this week which three weeks ago I would have said no way will they allow it.
This is a very fluid situation and colleges will be evaluating and making changes on a weekly basis next academic year, including how they will serve on campus food.
The whole cheating me to us really unreal at this level. I asked my son about this at Michigan and his answer was simple. Why would anyone put themselves in that position. The honor code means something and there is a reason why they have it.
Regardless of the school and plans there is going to be risk. To think that masks are the solution is naive ( IMHO). I’d put money on few wearing them outside the class and even then many Incorrectly. Touching door surfaces, showers, cafeterias, gyms( if open) and even the local drugstore/health center will give the virus plenty of chance to spread.
How many are willing to put their life/kids lives on hold for a year or longer when the kid has likely low risk of a poor outcome?
Also, colleges in some areas ( Boston for one) are major employers as well as centers. Closing them or putting them online is unlikely. Even BU, which came out first with an alarming “we won’t go back til 2021 has changed course.
I really think that legislating student/other behavior is laughable. If someone is wearing a mask ( around their neck) but doesn’t put it on are they going to be disciplined or just told to wear it? People are realizing that masks are not going to protect them and the result will be as it is now in hard hit areas, one has a mask and wears it occasionally to be courteous.
The fear factor that was so prominent in the Spring has subsided. Parents know it and college kids definitely know it.
People are realizing we are in this for the long term and need to make the best of it. This includes creating our own plan of action and not trying to convince others to do our thing. Things are opening up and short of a tsunami of cases, life will go on. ( And even a huge bunch of cases will be regional). The second “wave” is more likely to be lots of areas.
I’ve been asking about dining and was excited to see Duke address it because it tells us how colleges will handle quarantine groups. Students can sit at a table and eat with people they already hang out with indoors without masks. If this was a larger group then they would be able to all sit together, and the dining hall would be a lot of 4 tops spaced 6 feet apart. This would allow for the 50% capacity mentioned earlier. Duke’s plan and dining hall limitations are because they have to sit the students with their roommate and then 6 feet from the other table. If they’re in a single dorm room they sit by themselves. With this limitation the dining hall will hold about 10% of capacity and most meals will be boxed.
Two of the most important social times are eating in big groups and hanging out in someone’s dorm room. It appears both of those won’t happen. Sure students will use the outdoors but not when it’s raining or cold.
It’ll be interesting to see how a small isolated LAC handles this because they could go with larger quarantine groups.
Well good luck to colleges getting kids to apply ED if they won’t be hosting prospective students on campus to tour!
Honestly, how would schools know if you’re walking around campus? We may have to wing it. Have D do online info sessions and tours and then just walk around campuses if colleges don’t have official visits. I still think that’s a problem and they’ll see a big dip in ED - not what they want I’m sure.
Everything you outlined above…is the precise reason why teachers and professors will expect students to wear masks (correctly) and practice social distancing while in class.
The fear factor has subsided somewhat because the weather is nice and being outside is less risky (as long as people still practice social distancing). When fall and winter arrive…if cases spike again and there is no vaccine or treatment…fear will increase.
I think you can walk around outside with no problem. A lot of schools will offer some sort of walking tour because you’re right they have to get kids on campus to sell them on the school.
As for ED, it’s going to be interesting. Schools are feeling a financial pinch and have struggled with yield and melt, so they will be motivated to lock in a solid base of students. Add in how difficult it is to have test scores in October, limited tours, and the economy.
Wesleyan’s biggest problem, IMHO, won’t be its dining services; the facilities are reasonably new and flexible with a well-respected vendor (Bon Apetit;) they’ll come up with something. But, they did go to a lot of trouble to move its bookstore to Main Street and town/gown interaction was a big part of the rationale.
It worked well; there were nearly always customers from surrounding towns; it had a laid-back, Starbuckey kind of vibe (there was a coffee shop, too.) But, now it’s kind of a wasted asset as it only accepts curbside pick-ups of telephone orders (there is no delivery component as of yet.) They have a partner in RJ Julia and that accounts for much of the ambience, but it remains to be seen whether they can stay in business with just college book sales.
@AlwaysMoving S19 is hoping they let his XC team eat together even if they don’t have competitions this year. I think he ate 90 percent of his meals with someone from the team. He will be living with some of them (we hope - housing hasn’t been done yet) and those are all of his closest friends. Not sure how a college could regulate any of that.
Part of me wishes he would have chosen a warmer weather school! And heck if the weather won’t be a factor in D21’s search. Some northern schools on her list might be moving to the bottom. I can’t get her interested in schools that will be warm year round by NC is way more temperate that MA!
I think some schools will be doing tours, they will just look different. I know that Rice mentioned resuming visits in one of their communications, but I can’t seem to find it. I assume it will be small groups, masks, mostly outside, etc. Usually a lot of prospective students do overnights in the fall but I can’t believe those will be allowed this year.
Duke’s East campus houses all 1,800 freshman, and it is self-contained and isolated from the rest of the main campus. It has its own classrooms, marketplace (dining hall), library, theatre, and most importantly a large grassy quad right in the center where freshman can socially distance and eat/hangout. Last year, I wasn’t thrilled with this set-up but during this pandemic, might be a great way to limit the spread of the virus?
Last night we went out to a local outdoor area that has music and restaurants. (This is an upscale area full of professionals.) After being there, there is no way I believe for one minute that college students are going to social distance. People were acting like life is 100% normal with the exception that the waiters were wearing masks. And the masks were probably just making things worse bc the waiters kept touching their masks to put them back in place.
Masking is not going to make college campuses work. If professionals are not complying with the law as we currently have it in re-opening, there is no way a college campus is going to have compliance or be able to enforce what they are putting on paper.
Regarding cheating I know some schools are looking into using online proctoring software that requires a student to have their device’s webcam turned on so they can be monitored. I’ve been hearing push back from students due to privacy concerns with the current providers. It could be that some schools turn to creating their own online proctoring software.
Research says that surfaces are a low risk transmission method, so adjusting the mask doesn’t make things worse. The purpose of the mask is to reduce viral exhalation distance from a Covid positive person to another. In that case adjusting the mask is fine and called for.
There will be contact at college, no doubt about it. But testing and attempting social distancing- especially in the classroom where students are in the same room with professors, helps reduce the spread. This is not about the fall, this is about the next year or 18 months when we get a vaccine (if we are lucky). Students of all grades and ages cannot stay home for 18 more months - especially with the risk profile we have now and the information we have now.
Question- Did you feel comfortable there? Will you go back?