To add to the discussion about how courses are delivered, my D17 has three in-person classes and one class that is divided into two groups. One day half the class attends in person and the next class for those students is on zoom. She said in all of her classes, there are some remote students attending through zoom and it is working well. Vassar invited all students back to campus. While it is still early and things could definitely change, it is not necessarily a given that colleges successfully handling Covid and quality course delivery must not invite all years back.
It will be interesting to see how San Diego does as a whole with schools reopening. My D21’s school remains fully remote. They are so small (both in numbers and in terms of physical space) that there is no feasible way they could have been in compliance with county guidelines if they reopened. This is fine for us. D21’s dual enrollment classes at the cc are also fully remote, and it appears to be working out fairly well overall.
[qe basic things are right and wrong. Going to a party when you have covid is wrong.
It’s also hard to compare numbers because Rice tests all students both on and off campus weekly and reports those results. UH is testing those who are symptomatic or have been identified through contact tracing as needing a test.
I have a kid at Rice and personally I think the reason Rice has been successful so far is the kids have been pretty darn fantastic about distancing and mask wearing and avoid the large gatherings. The kids are still allowed off campus and many are still living in suites (my daughter was in a 4 person suite with 2 doubles connected to a bath until recently when they asked to spread out since there are empty rooms and they wanted more privacy for online classes). They can visit in rooms on their floor but with masks. I have no idea if everyone is following the rules but my D is. She had a friend from her floor over the other evening and got hungry and went out of the room to have a snack because she couldn’t take off her mask with her friend in her room. Off campus kids are allowed on campus as long as they are tested weekly though they can’t go into rooms. On campus kids can visit friends off campus though they are expected to follow the same rules as on campus. I’m really impressed with what the kids are doing. BUT, I am also worried that covid fatigue is going to set in and that they are going to get overconfident about how well things are going that they will get lazy. The situation there is unique because it’s not really a super closed bubble and the kids aren’t being tested multiple times a week like at other schools. Instead the responsibility is falling on the kids. Risky, but so far it’s working.
Well. It sounds, if anything, as if the cases at Houston may be under-counted. OTOH, a google search tells me that 75% of Rice students live in university owned housing while only 20% of University of Houston undergraduates do.
In a normal year that is true. But this year of the approximately 4000 undergrads about 1600 are on campus. Another 1500 are off campus in Houston. The rest stayed home and are remote. All were invited back but many felt it would be safer or just better to live off campus or stay home for various reasons. Most were concerned about coming back to campus because Houston was such a hot spot at the time they had to make their housing decisions. In D’s residential college about 85% of the freshman class are living on campus. The rest stayed home. Meanwhile only about 20% of her sophomore class are on campus.
I have no idea how many of the 1500 off campus are coming to campus and getting tested regularly. If they have on campus classes they want to attend or want to come and socialize at all (they can still attend social events at their residential colleges) they have to be tested). Based on the number of tests given this last week, I suspect most are getting tested. The tests are free.
Some more kids are planning to return to campus after first semester, especially freshman. D also had a friend return a week ago and had another international athlete friend coming next month. Those who come late have to test and quarantine when they arrive.
Looking at the covid-19 dashboards for BC and NEU
BC conducted 1228 students tests last WEEK
NEU conducts 6900 students per DAY
It’s almost impossible to compare colleges with such different testing plans. Goals are different at each school.
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It’s safe to assume that pre-symptomatic students are causing most spread on campuses, but I haven’t seen anything that confirms true asymptomatic carries are contagious.
The goals should be the same at all schools. To keep the students and employees safe and healthy by limiting the spread of Covid. It is therefore quite legitimate to compare how schools are succeeding to show what is working and what isn’t working. Varied testing plans will highlight which plans are successful.
Regardless, there is no way to distinguish between asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic cases so it’s a distinction without a difference in practical terms.
You keep coming back to this point. Even with everyone neg test you still have to social distance and wear a mask. Yes, even if everyone is negative. We have people over in our back yard and we just pull our chairs out a little farther (having drinks and such) and just talk without masks. We are just not on top of each other. Once students get to comfortable then the spread will increase. If they are truly in a bubble then maybe not but there is so much we are learning daily and just don’t really know yet.
If someone has the virus in sufficient quantities and does something that can transmit it (e.g, coughing at close range), there’s no reason why they couldn’t infect someone else. See, for example:
I guess I just can’t accept that. All colleges will wilt and go away then. You can’t social distance and go to college so we are looking at how many years of online class and avoiding each other over a virus where 99% of infected people survive and a vast majority of those with complications are very very old or have pre-existing conditions?
Can someone explain why, if kids are testing negative twice or three times a week (or every day!), they can’t have a normal experience? S and his friends all tested negative before moving into their house made an immediate bubble. Two weeks in, all is good. No distancing between them. I get that a college campus is different and bigger but they (and we) were comfortable with them being together right away.
@gotham_mom If you agree with @Knowsstuff above then you’ll send your D to Williams next fall after her deferral knowing that everyone will still be in masks and socially distanced?
Asymptomatic people have viral loads as high as symptomatic people: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2769235
It’s not obvious how people with such high viral loads wouldn’t be contagious, particularly if they are talking loudly, as they might be at a party or a bar.
Your S and his housemates form a confined small group of 5 or 6 willing to do what is required behaviorally to stay negative. You can’t maintain that sort of containment on a college campus, or at least on most college campuses, nor will you get buy in from all the students behaviorally as we’ve seen.
And although tests are a snapshot, arguably if you take a test every day then that should gain some freedoms. The issue I see with the quick test is how sensitive is it? And how sensitive does it need to be? That goes to the viral load question discussed earlier…as we learn more about how much virus is required to be infectious hopefully test development will keep pace and we’ll end up with a rapid test that tells us what we need to know.
However, I do agree with you that if everyone could take a quick test before they leave their house or dorm room each morning and they wear a mask, a good one, not just a piece of fabric, then the distancing could be modified…not gone but perhaps 2 feet vs 6. @Knowsstuff is correct that we still don’t know enough about the virus at this point to make those decisions but I’m confident we will progress enough towards that knowledge in the next 12-18 months.
There’s also the issue of infecting people who are more at risk. If all people working on a college campus were low risk that would help but unfortunately that’s not the reality. So it’s a balancing act.
In the end it requires patience and I, for one, am not a patient person. My rising sophomore elected to take a gap year and I want it things to measurably improve by next year. Otherwise, as you point out, the residential college experience Americans love is in danger of becoming a relic.
Why is BC testing so little? They have 10,000 on campus…doesn’t seem like enough.
Of course, will any residential colleges in the US act as authoritarian as universities and the government in China can do on this matter?
Yes. I’m feeling impatient . And colleges already making the call for spring semester is making me nervous that NO change will happen for February. In our case, we know that Bowdoin is saying all classes still remote but, hopefully, soph-seniors on campus. We will have to decide if S19 wants to do that. He was a definite yes when he originally decided on a semester off but, seeing how these LACs are so locked down, now he’s not sure. I’m hoping there’s a sliver of a chance that things will be a little more relaxed by mid-Oct for the rest of the NESCACs with everyone on campus and we can point to that to convince Bowdoin they can do the same. But now this thread is still talking about 12-18 months for any meaningful difference and I thought that 12-18 months was originally from March 2020 not right now.
We can salvage D21’s college experience if she takes a gap and starts in 2022 but S19’s college experience is more tenuous.
[quote=“homerdog, post:16054, topic:2088334”]
Because their bubbles are constantly changing. Every time one of the roommates goes to a class, the grocery store, to work, has dinner with a girlfriend he’s bringing that contact to the 5 others in the house and he’s sending the germs of the 5 in the house home with all those he’s been in contact with (the GF, the GF’s roommates, the grocery store workers).
There aren’t only 5 or 6 living in the apartment or house or dorm room, there are all their contacts too. If one of the roommates goes to a class with 40 other kids, you are contacting their bubbles too.