<p>
It won't ever replace a degree in the specific subject area (so you're probably not going to be beating out CS majors for jobs in CS, unless it's in theoretical algorithmic development or something), but it is certainly far from useless.
True, I used exaggerated wording. What I meant was "useless" career-wise compared to the majority of other degrees or degree combinations.</p>
<p>No major is useless; some just don't happen to be very practical. For the most part, you can get any job with any degree as long as you have a useful skillset and job experience.</p>
<p>This is a long reply, so for the two or three of you who will read it, here it is:</p>
<p>
Both you and the person who told you this are idiots for believing it. It is well known that a math degree by itself, like a philosophy degree by itself, is quite useless career-wise out of the teaching profession.
</p>
<p>That's what I suspected all along, but I was convinced otherwise. At any rate, I acknowledge that my naiveness is noone's fault but my own.</p>
<p>
Go to professional school. ie law, medicine. Your gpa is high enough.
</p>
<p>At the risk of being accused of having low self-esteem, and receiving a long scolding lecture that will deviate too much from the topic at hand, I'll reveal that I sincerely don't believe that I am law school or medicine school material. That's because I've done a terrible job at practice MCATs and LSATs, especially the reading comprehension parts, which unfortunately are the parts of the exams that you can't really study for and expect to get good at. If you don't do well on the overall exams, your total score will plummet, and you'll have to set your hopes for a tier 2 or tier 3 law or medical school; that is, of course, if you still want to pursue a career in law or medine. I don't care that much about law or medicine, so those options are out of the equation.</p>
<p>
you could be an actuary, or do you need a masters for that?
</p>
<p>Any master's or a master's in the acturial sciences? I know this: a master's degree in the acturial sciences is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to become an actuary; you can do so with just a bachelor's in math and you still need to pass the exams.</p>
<p>
i'm assuming you did pure math? anyways, shouldnt you have known that a pure math major is useless in employers' eyes?if you like pure math, why not go for grad school since youre gpa's pretty decent?</p>
<p>if you did applied math, then i guess you got bad luck as i thought they should have no problem findign jobs
</p>
<p>Actually, that's a good question. But my answer is even better: I just majored in math, but I'd say that 40% of the math courses I took in college were pure math and the remainder applied.</p>
<p>
If you liked computer science, I find it strange that you did not pursue a minor or a double major in the subject. It is common for mathematics majors to do so.
</p>
<p>I discovered computer science too late in my college career. I squeezed in as many computer science courses as I could, but not enough to complete a major or even a minor.</p>
<p>
Just out of curiosity, what was your main interest in undergraduate mathematics? What courses did you particularly enjoy? If your answer(s) are limited to things like abstract algebra, topology, and, God help you, real analysis, then you are pretty much in trouble.
</p>
<p>My favorite subjects were differential equations and discrete math. I was never too fond of pure math.</p>
<p>
Not everybody is willing or able to perform academic research in the discipline they enjoy most. In fact, IQ correlates fairly well with ability to become a professor at a research institution.
</p>
<p>And that's a very good point. Despite popular belief, not all math majors have genius level IQs, which means that not all of them will get paid to conduct research. Alike most math majors, I don't have a genius level IQ, so research jobs are out of my league.</p>
<p>
Engineering and science majors learn all the math they need in their own classes as well as in relevant mathematics classes. Why? Because mathematics classes are taught as introductions to the material. Sad, maybe, but ultimately true.
</p>
<p>Exactly, so why is an engineering firm going to hire someone like me, who knows nothing about engineering, to do math, when they can hire an engineer who can do math just as well?</p>
<p>
...The point is that telling mathematics majors that they can compete for jobs in other fields with people who have been studying those disciplines is fundamentally flawed; modeling is how mathematics is used in other disciplines, and that's what other majors learn... the only difference is that it is more targeted.
</p>
<p>Absolutely, and that's why I feel so cheated. Though I must add, a computer science professor once told me that he liked math majors more than computer science majors, because they were usually more intelligent. That same professor, however, a couple of years later asked me why I was going to bother searching for a programming job, since I was a math major.</p>
<p>
Computer science: "Beyond mere proficiency in computer programming" this is the sort of haughtiness that makes math majors hard to employ. They consider other majors to be less rigorous by comparison, and thus assume they are overqualified for positions. That whoever wrote this article sees CS as "mere proficiency in computer programming" is very telling.
</p>
<p>Not all math majors are like that. Personally, I always felt that physics was a lot harder than math. And if we are going to talk about literature, then math is the easiest subject on earth.</p>
<p>
You seem to be of the mindset that just because you have a bachelors degree from a decent university that you're somehow entitled to a high paying job doing what you want to do. Well in short, the answer is no.
</p>
<p>I made an investment, and that investment didn't pay off, so I'm venting, and I believe, rightly so. I also believe that what happened to me could serve as a cautionary tale to people planning to pursue a college career in math. In a way, in addition to blowing off some steam, I am doing people who want to study math a favor.</p>
<p>
You have a strong GPA from a strong school. Look into management positions at major fortune 500 firms. Government and defense contractors are a good place to start. Additionally, consulting firms would also be a good place to look. Don't confine yourself to some specific set of careers that you think a math major should go into.
</p>
<p>Again, I don't have the personality type or the desire to go into management. And let's not even talk about social skills, because math majors are not exactly known for being suave.</p>
<p>When you say "Government," do you mean places like the department of defense? I already thought of that option, but a career advisor discouraged me from pursuing such jobs on the grounds that only very intelligent people work at those places. If that's the impression that person got of my intellect, having seen my presentation skills, in spite of being fully aware of my academic performance, do you think I should bother?</p>
<p>Your post seeks pity, and I'm not giving you any. You put your self in the situation of getting paid $16 an hour, because if you were more flexible with career options you'd be getting paid more. You specifically say that you want to work with math, and only math. With that, you're closing yourself in a box. </p>
<p>You make the comparison of someone else going to a 2nd tier college majoring in sociology, and getting paid more than you. If life was so black and white, then a sociology major would ideally want to be a social worker, or something of that sort. Working at a bank would probably be as much of a sacrifice for that person who majored in sociology, as it would be for you to be a teacher( or any of the jobs you listed). However that other person chose that getting paid more was more important to them then putting their degree to use. So you automatically are making a comparison that doesn't even work.</p>
<p>Beyond that, regardless of whatever employment you seek theres a way to market yourself other than i'm good at math and that's it. no one wants to work with someone who is so narrow minded and one dimensional. qualities all employers will seek, and that will pay the most are people who can work as part of a team, who have excellent communication skills(including making presentations), and being hard working.</p>
<p>Math in general is considered to be a better major than most liberal art majors(philosophy, sociology, art history, etc) because of the job prospect , yet you choose to close yourself of anything that math majors are offered or would be good at, so naturally almost anyone who doesn't think the way you do will probably make more money than you regardless of their major or school of attendance.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Again, I don't have the personality type or the desire to go into management. And let's not even talk about social skills, because math majors are not exactly known for being suave.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Sorry to say this, but if you don't have decent social skills (which is what I got from the above excerpt), then career advancement is going to be rather difficult, regardless of your major.</p>
<p>
[quote]
You make the comparison of someone else going to a 2nd tier college majoring in sociology, and getting paid more than you. If life was so black and white, then a sociology major would ideally want to be a social worker, or something of that sort. Working at a bank would probably be as much of a sacrifice for that person who majored in sociology, as it would be for you to be a teacher( or any of the jobs you listed). However that other person chose that getting paid more was more important to them then putting their degree to use. So you automatically are making a comparison that doesn't even work.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You don't have any basis to say that my friend "chose that getting paid more was more important to them than putting their degree to use." My understanding is that he couldn't find a job in the field that he studied, so he settled for a job at a bank. It's actually a valid comparison, because we both ended up doing jobs unrelated to our fields of study.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Beyond that, regardless of whatever employment you seek theres a way to market yourself other than i'm good at math and that's it. no one wants to work with someone who is so narrow minded and one dimensional. qualities all employers will seek, and that will pay the most are people who can work as part of a team, who have excellent communication skills(including making presentations), and being hard working.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Your argument is based on a false premise. I already said that I wanted a job doing math that involved programming. So, clearly, my interests go beyond doing math and only math. Now, as for the qualities employers will seek, working as part of a team and being hard working are within my reach. But excellent communication skills? Well, not everyone has those, and if you are a college educated guy, in his mid 20's, who still has trouble with communication skills, it probably means that's the hand you were dealt and something you'll have to learn to live with. I don't want a job where I'll have to speak in front of people, and I won't apologize for this preference.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sorry to say this, but if you don't have decent social skills (which is what I got from the above excerpt), then career advancement is going to be rather difficult, regardless of your major.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That's true if you want to advance to management or some type of supervisory role.</p>
<p>While it may be true that students should show initiative in selling themselves for jobs, and be prepared to make compromises, etc., it's also true that the mathematics major has failed to provide its students with the same sort of industry opportunities as some other related disciplines, including:</p>
<p>economics / finance
engineering
computer science</p>
<p>Students in those majors have it much easier than math majors. Is that fair? Well, life isn't fair, but does that mean that people can't complain about it?</p>
<p>Moire, it seems like you are just the sort of case I have been trying to prevent in my long-winded rants about the mathematics major: you have legitimate applied interests, and are obviously a very intelligent human being. It sounds like you were misled and naive, and it's a shame... a real shame, and you should question the system and let others know about what happened to you. My heart goes out to you.</p>
<p>Now, you should try to make the best of a bad situation... have you considered, perhaps, a professional master's in some discipline? Your employer may even help pay for some graduate CS training, and that would be your ticket out of (what sounds like) a dead-end job. Other options for math majors certainly exist. The trick will be finding one that is feasible and appetizing to you.</p>
<p>Moire,
I have this suggestion for you, but not sure it if it is doable. Since you said,</p>
<p>"I discovered computer science too late in my college career. I squeezed in as many computer science courses as I could, but not enough to complete a major or even a minor."</p>
<p>Can you go back to college and take some additional classes to meet the requirements get that computer science degree as well? Since you say you already took a lot of CS classes, I am guessing you can meet the major's requirements in a year. So you will have 2 majors now!
I hope it works out and you go into computers. Don't give up.</p>
<p>I agree with SkyGirl. Try and get some more classes in CS and that'll give you a far better platform to venture into programming.</p>
<p>Or, you could join the air force - aeronautical mathematics. My step mother works in aeronautical engineering; there are plenty of programming jobs there but they require some sort of engineering or CS knowledge. I'd say your best bet is to head back to college, at least for some extra classes.</p>
<p>dude, go back to school and get a certificate or degree in CS then. maybe your local community college can start you off or something.</p>
<p>goto your school's career management center. My friend is a major in Mathematics with a decent GPA at a 3rd tier school. Locheed Martin offered him a 4 year internship and co-op with decent pay.</p>
<p>I know someone who went to a very good school, got a Ph.D. in math, and makes a fair amount of money programming. The Ph.D. was definitely unnecessary for what he does - so there are jobs out there!</p>
<p>Similarly, my dad majored in Math and programs now - though he did minor in Computer Science.</p>
<p>
[quote]
goto your school's career management center. My friend is a major in Mathematics with a decent GPA at a 3rd tier school. Locheed Martin offered him a 4 year internship and co-op with decent pay.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>E-mail your friend a link to this thread. I'd love to chat with him.</p>
<p>csprof2000, I was reading your answers, and was wondering why are you so biased against math majors? ;)</p>
<p>I don't consider myself biased against math majors, but against those members of academia who have bungled the US undergraduate mathematics curriculum, who have no intention of fixing anything, and have continued to perpetrate the myth that a degree in math is a ticket to a good paying job.</p>
<p>I actually rather like math majors. They are generally very bright, very creative, and genuinely love learning. The problem is that these bright students naively believe the mathematics propaganda, and are either drawn into the "more intellectual than thou" mentality (these are usually the same ones who remain in academia and continue propagating the system) or resist it, and then go into the job market (often, with mixed results).</p>
<p>My advice to prospective mathematics majors is this: unless you are sure you want to do research or teach, and only if there is absolutely no other way to study the sorts of things that interest you, choose another major; if you decide later that you really must change, it's normally easy to switch to a mathematics major, and if after graduation you decide you really want to do research in mathematics, go to graduate school in the subject. The way undergraduate mathematics programs are run here, I would almost say that it's dangerous and irresponsible to draw such talented students away from disciplines with more direct applications to industry.</p>
<p>I can see a "pure math" major with no career choice besides teaching or doing research. But what about the "applied math" major? Doesn't he have more options?</p>
<p>A bachelor's degree is pretty much worthless unless you majored in engineering.</p>
<p>By the way one of my parents majored in math (with a minor in CS)....and is now working in business. </p>
<p>What about working for the NSA? Or do they look more for engineers? </p>
<p>Math, like biology, is somewhat useless on the undergrad level. It is one of the most difficult majors but unless you want to go to academia, it doesn't really help.</p>
<p>The "pure" versus "applied" dichotomy is something that academics like to debate, but that industry almost completely dismisses as irrelevant.</p>
<p>Even the most applied mathematics is less applicable than the most theoretical areas of many other quantitative disciplines... theoretical physics, theoretical computer science, etc. That's the problem... mathematics is too general, not too abstract, to be worth anything to most industry applications.</p>
<p>There are options for math majors, including government work and research. However, these options are relatively limited, and are certainly not limited to mathematics majors. The real issue is that the overwhelming majority of "quantitative" jobs are out of reach to many undergraduate mathematics majors... not due to lack of skill or ability or poor decisions, but because they just chose the wrong major.</p>