Schools of Engineering

Applying to College
1

<p>Son #2 would like to be an engineer (most likely mechanical but still thinking). We are in the Northeast and hope that he will stay in this area for a variety of personal/family reasons. Having visited a few schools now I have a few questions about engineering admissions/schools. Engineering seems like a very different type of search compared with son #1's search (economics/pre-law). I am hoping that some engineers or other hopeful engineers might be able to help me (mom) achieve some insight. So far we have been to schools that seem to focus on their facilities and getting a job out of school and others that have stressed the benefits of being in a smaller, engineering plus liberal arts setting. We have seen uberreaches and what appear to be safeties but few inbetween schools in our area. My son is 750M, 680V and 680W for first SAT, most rigorous curriculum with A- average, if that is helpful information. He is interested in going on to graduate school and hopefully participating in research but he definitely does not want all theory/fundamentals.</p>

<p>In looking at engineering schools from within the field - what are the most important things to consider (facilities, hands-on versus theoretical emphasis, research opportunites, coop, liasons, faculty, acceptance to grad school rates, recruitment for jobs and job placement, faculty ratio, ???). Are there big differences in the curriculum and experiences if one goes to a LAC with engineering versus a special school of engineering (polytechnic)? Would a large university (state univrersity e.g.) or speicalized school (?RPI e.g.) be more likely to have a better program and resources for engineering than say a small LAC type school (there aren't many in our area, perhaps Tufts, or further away Bucknell, Villanova, or the Ivy programs?). Is it important to go to one of the top engineering schools in USNews for future jobs or for graduate school? Most of them are either reaches or very far away. What should we be looking for when we visit? Is it odd to not see the engineering facilities on a tour? I have really enjoyed the presentations and have learned a lot about engineering but it's still something I know very little about and I feel lost re: helping him filter through the possibilities and parameters. Also, what should one think about an engineering school that sends 1/3 of the engineering students to medical school (is that a positive thing about an engineering program? Are many pre-med students applying to engineering schools or do many engineering students decide to apply to med school?). </p>

<p>My son would prefer to have a more balanced male/female experience, a more traditional college experience, and the ability to take a broader curriculum, if possible. Is that a reasonable hope or expectation for a good engineering program? Any thoughts? Any resources you know about specific to engineering? I have found a few websites but information about admissions to engineering programs is hard to find. Many thanks.</p>

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<p>Though they do not seem like matches, here are a list of engineering schools I know of in the NE along with their "broadness" for classes in other disciplines.</p>

<p>MIT (quite engineering-focused)
Olin (small; engineering-focused but with great liberal arts partner schools)
Columbia (Good blend of engineering and non-engineering)</p>

<p>The only others I know of in the NE are like sub-safety for your child... I can't think of any matches :(</p>

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<p>
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a more traditional college experience, and the ability to take a broader curriculum

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</p>

<p>I'd give a look at state schools, as they'd do just that.<br>
Most of the schools I'm looking at that fit the idea of being able to be engineering/non-eng. tend to be out of the NE though... from the searches I did a year back, all schools I found in the NE were tech. schools, and not much in the humanities department.</p>

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<p>Wow, you have a ton of questions! I'll touch on a few things. Engineering schools are acredited by ABET; make sure any program you consider has this. The curriculum is standardized by ABET, so to some degree school is less important than with just a liberal-arts degree. On the other hand, employers know they're likely to find brighter kids when the recruit at Stanford than at San Jose State 15 miles away. So school ranking isn't irrelevant, either. If you're concerned, ask about who recruited on campus last year and what percentage of students who weren't going to grad school found jobs that way. It should be pretty high. The most important thing to look for when you visit is the atmosphere. Is it a helpful atmosphere or cut-throat? Are profs accessible or more concerned with grad students? What advising is offered? Are kids assigned a faculty advisor?</p>

<p>Given that 1/2 to 2/3 of the kids who start in engineering drop out nationally, I'd give some thought to whether the school has alternatives for non-engineers or if those kids have to transfer. See <a href="http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=45200041%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=45200041&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The other thing I'd look for is a good internship or coop program. This is the key to getting a good job out of college. Hard as it is to get thru college, employers know the job is quite different from the classes. They prefer kids who have spent a summer or semester working in the field and know its a fit. Every college will tell you it has these programs, so you need to dig to find out what percentage of kids took part. Talk to some current students, too; if every one gives you a blank look when you ask about their internships (talking to juniors and seniors) the school doesn't have an effective program. Even without it engineers are in demand, but with an internship or coop under your belt and a decent GPA the top firms in the country will want to talk to you.</p>

<p>Oh, and BTW if your son "doesn't want all theory and fundamentals" he's in the wrong program. Engineering is 4 years of calculus. Make sure he talks to some current engineering students before he decides that's what he wants to major in. Some schools have an occasional practical design class or two (such as RPI with LITEC) that they trumpet to show how great they are. Of course the reason that course stands out is the REST of the ones are not like it at all.</p>

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<p>Great answers so far. I don't have all the answers either, Riley. But here are some thoughts from the wife of an Engineer and mother of a rising junior in Engineering.</p>

<p>From what you have said, I think a U with good Engineering is a far better option for your S than a "tech" school. In other words, I would favor for him a Tufts, a Lehigh, a UNH etc etc over a WPI/RPI/MIT/Olin. Actually, I'll leave MIT out of that list. I think you "get it all" if you choose that school, despite the Tech in its name.</p>

<p>These non-tech schools offer options if he decides Engineering is not for him, as mentioned above. They will have a better M/F ratio. And a better chance at the "full college experience" than some of the tech schools (some of the tech schools would give him this). He can definitely go this route without fear of suffering a "lesser" Engineering quality experience (think JHU where my son is, Stanford as mentioned - Engineering students are not settling for "less" when they choose these options over an MIT or CalTech).</p>

<p>Very very few LACs have Engineering at all. Swarthmore comes to mind as one that does. The ones you are calling "LAC type" are, to my mind, really small universities vs. large or mega-universities. IMO, the quality of the Engineering program can be tops at either type, so he should choose on other criteria. Mikemac has outlined some very good points re choosing a school.</p>

<p>It is not odd to miss seeing Engineering facilities on a general tour. Some schools have special Engineering tours. Lehigh is one; I think Trinity does. And you can certainly call ahead and see what arrangements can be made at others. Some have special Engineering admitted students days after acceptances but before the deadline to decide.</p>

<p>I'd be interested to hear what Engineering schools are sending 1/3 to med school. I don't see anything wrong with that, other than that the feeling of a pressure-cooker environment <em>might</em> (I have no actual experience) predominate there due to the intensity of the Engineering curriculum plus pressure of pre-med worries. Remember that biomed Engineering is increasingly a "hot" field now, so if a school is strong in that, it may send a number on to medical school from that field, although plenty of BMEs don't go that route at all.</p>

<p>Do you think your S will stay near your home area after graduation? Because that would factor in to my answer about whether it is important to go to a top from USNews or not. In our area, for example, UNH and even UMaine-Orono are very well respected for those staying around here. My H went to UNH and had a stellar career (but of course we are dinosaurs) not staying in the area at all (DC area, then California and also positions internationally for a while). UM-Orono or that caliber school I would recommend more if he were going to stay very very local as an almost sure thing.</p>

<p>Curricula at most Engineering schools, I think, are practically in lockstep with each other for year 1. After that, the students start to go off in their particular majors (mech, civil, EE, BME etc), but it's not so much that the Engineering curricula differ by whether he goes big U or small U, rather number of course offerings and profs and students in his major.</p>

<p>Random thoughts: you might want to post a number of your questions that we haven't answered on the Engineering subforum here on cc. Knowledgeable posters are there. </p>

<p>For the safety/match schools he applies to - with his stellar stats - make sure he takes care to "show interest" as some of them are sensitive to being safeties for the Ivies and top schools and worry about yield.</p>

<p>The super reaches are obvious for everyone. Not sure which safeties he has looked at. Some which might be in the middle would include: Lehigh, Villanova, Tufts, Trinity, Lafayette, Bucknell, UMd-CP, Penn State, Carnegie Mellon (probably the reachiest of those I'm listing here), Case Western. I could list a lot of safeties/super-safeties but not sure you need them. Also not sure where you are and what you consider "far away." So I have considered the full Northeast area. Carnegie Mellon I have heard (but can't attest that it is true) has the Engineering kids feeling a lot more segregated from the other schools, so that may not be what he's looking for. At the others we've visited or know about, the kids are nicely integrated in.</p>

<p>McGill in Montreal is another interesting option. If you count Michigan, Illinois and Indiana to be Northeast-enough, then he has the option of UMich, UIUC and Purdue. Large quality schools, top Engineering. For which I would consider him a "slam dunk," knowing of course there's no such thing in today's college admissions ;).</p>

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<p>A lot of good ideas in the last post, some I agree with, some I don't. </p>

<p>No disrespect to jmmom's husband indented, but I think your S can do a lot better than UNH or Maine. I'm an electrical engineer in the Boston area, and we don't even recruit there locally. Nationally, we draw from the top schools in the east and midwest, and locally from MIT, Northeastern, Tufts, UMass-Amherst, RPI, and WPI. </p>

<p>I'd say if your son can get into MIT, Cornell, Carnegie-Mellon, those are in a league by themselves. Princeton, Johns Hopkins and RPI are not far behind. Cooper Union, if he can get in, is outstanding preparation for graduate school. Columbia, Lehigh, Penn State and Maryland are probably in the next group. Columbia Engineering is separate from Arts and Science and traditionally has been much easier to get into. </p>

<p>After that, a lot depends on style of the school. RPI, Tufts and Northeastern are three good contrasting examples. Tufts is a great liberal arts college that's hard to get into and attracts very smart students. However, the engineering there is less rigorous (sadly so in IMHO) than at the top tier or RPI. Tufts graduates almost need to go to graduate school and do quite well there because they are fundamentally brilliant, but they really haven't learned enough in undergrad to compete with Cornell graduates for a job with just a BS. On the other hand, Tufts students get a more well-rounded liberal arts education. Northeastern is the opposite extreme. They take a lot more average students but then get them coops. Students learn a lot on the job and the synergy and perspective makes them learn more in the classroom too. They are actually more rigorous than Tufts. Northeastern has more of a practical bent, and their students are far less likely to go to PhD programs, but probably more capable of actually doing engineering right out of undergraduate than Tufts students. RPI is somewhere in between. It's a tech school that has far more rigorous engineering than both, far more serious research than both - great preparation for both graduate school and work, but much easier to get into than Tufts. Its a "tech" experience though, and not the broad LAC experience. I think that's a personal choice. </p>

<p>I think your son has a shot at Cornell or Carnegie-Mellon though. BTW, Michigan is in that very top tier also, and its only a short flight away.</p>

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<p>This is great information. Thanks so much - running off to work and will follow-up later. I shouldn't say that he doesn't want fundamentals or all theory - I am putting words in his mouth. I just know that he loves projects, etc. He knows that it's a lot of calculus and physics but he does well with these subjects and likes them best.</p>

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<p>Olin College focuses on project based learning. It is a tech school, but many students take humanities and social science classes at Wellesley and Brandeis, and business classes at Babson. </p>

<p>If you're in the northeast, I'd suggest a visit there. It's an unusual school.</p>

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<p>chrisd - Yes, we toured Olin but I almost felt bad taking him there since it is such an uberreach. He is very interested in Olin - we both liked it and I am not even thinking about the tuition benefits (not yet, anyway!). </p>

<p>One thing that is always in the background - son#1 is at William & Mary and son #2 has been there many times. It sure is hard to compare the engineering schools around here with the campus and feel of WM! WM has the quintessential college campus feel and a very positive feel from the students that we haven't quite seen yet on our engineering school visits (except maybe Tufts). I do believe this is where the desire to have a more traditional college setting/experience comes from but he does understand that he may not be able to get it if he wants engineering.</p>

<p>mikemac - thanks for the article - very interesting about the dropout rate and, again, an Olin plus! jmmon, thanks for all your info and assessment, your son's experiences - great info - we will look at least at UMass and maybe consider UMich. I am not sure about other state schools - maybe we should consider UVA now that we have figured out the VA travel plan. ClassicRockerDad your local assessment from an infield perspective is invaluable. Many thanks. Any comments on BU? I am not a big BU fan for my son (I did go to grad school there) but it is a possible match for him. Also, ClassicRockerDad - Bucknell was ranked high for undergrad only but when we visited with son #1 3 years ago (it is beautiful) I wasn't thrilled with how isolated it was and the Greek emphasis there. But, maybe he should look at it? How does Bucknell compare to some of the ones you have mentioned here? Villanova (also ranked for undergrad only)? Thank you so much, again.</p>

<p>I am also reading the interesting discussion about engineering at the Ivies on another thread. Not thinking Ivy for my son here but learning more. It seems that places like Brown, Harvard, Dartmouth do not have highly regarded engineering. I called Dartmouth months ago but was told my son would have to go two more years after graduating to get an engineering degree so didn't look any further at that kind of arrangement. I was a real novice then so maybe I misunderstood.</p>

<p>Does anyone have any information about SAT II scores in Math and Physics for engineering admissions? Hard to know what is an admissions worthy score as there is no data about SAT IIs out there.</p>

<p>Also, I did not realize that engineering wouldn't be any fun at most schools! I hope my son realizes that. Smile!</p>

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<p>Engineering is extremely fun! It hurts so good! He will have fun in college, he'll just have to study harder that the liberal arts majors. Not 24/7 though.</p>

<p>BU isn't on the map, compared to the other local schools I mentioned. I actually don't know many engineers who I know went to BU, although there must be some. Northeastern by far dominates the local scene. I'm guessing it's because after doing a co-op, students are more likely to stick it out because they have more perspective.</p>

<p>I don't know anything about Bucknell either. It's very small and my chances of meeting someone from there are also small. If you consider what fraction of engineers in a given locality went to Bucknell, you get a very small number.</p>

<p>I've met a bunch of talented Villanova engineers when I worked in NJ and I think it has a decent program. I think you might be aiming too low though. </p>

<p>SATII's: Not all schools require them. The top schools like to see in the 700's. The 750 M on SAT I should get your S admitted to all of the others. </p>

<p>I'm not sure where you live, but if you consider how long you'd spend driving to Bucknell, you could fly to the midwest, save a lot more money on tuition than you'd spend in airfare, and get schools in the very top tier of engineering schools that have very traditional college experiences. Your S has a decent shot at Michigan, Illinois, and Wisconsin. Purdue is probably a great safety. These schools are all better choices than the local schools. That's why we invest in recruiting there. (In fairness, we find that students in the midwest are not afraid of Boston weather like Texans, Georgians or Californians). Closer to the east coast Maryland in College Park is on the DC Metro. Its proximity to the Beltway and the defense contractors also makes it a great choice because there is a lot of interaction between the school and industry. Again, the $15K a year you save on tuition can more than pay for a few USAIR shuttle flights.</p>

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<p>I'll just add some thoughts about your question regarding college visits for engineering. </p>

<p>After many visits to engineering programs I felt that seeing facilities was, in fact, very important. And not just because you can see all their fancy stuff (none of which I had any clue about) but really because it was a chance to snag a grad student, or a prof, and get the feel for the place. </p>

<p>So, my advice is this: When you are touring campuses, ask admissions (in advance) to set up a private tour of the engineering department for you. Every school we asked did that. While you're on the tour, ask a lot of questions. Ask about support systems for engineering students. Ask if there is a person "in charge" of freshman engineering students. Ask if there is a lounge, or office, or hang-out place for engineering students to go to for advising, tutoring, etc., and go look at it. (This is especially important in the large, all-purpose universities.) Also, ask them to arrange for him to sit in a freshman class. BE SURE TO VISIT WHEN SCHOOL IS IN SESSION!</p>

<p>The second thing I'd recommend is to try to experience an extra-curricular activity that your son might like to participate in. We saw plays and music productions, because that was what interested my son. Again, admissions can help you out with that. You can really get a sense of how many kids are doing the stuff your son might enjoy, and whether they seem like "his type." lol</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>I went to Carnegie Mellon. I never had a problem getting a direct flight to the Boston area back in that era.</p>

<p>CMU has Sleeping Bag Weekends scheduled throughout the year. The prospective bunks with an undergraduate on a Sunday night and can sit in on classes the next day.</p>

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<p>
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Engineering schools are acredited by ABET; make sure any program you consider has this. The curriculum is standardized by ABET

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</p>

<p>Like I've said in other threads, ABET accreditation is only important if you plan to become a state-certified Professional Engineer, yet that status is important in only a few engineering fields, notably civil engineering. The vast majority of engineers will not become PE's, nor will they need to be. </p>

<p>In fact, in certain engineering fields - i.e. bioengineering, materials science - it's not even possible to become certified as no state actually offers a certification path for them. Hence, accreditation for these fields is essentially irrelevent. Some schools do offer 'accredited' programs in these fields, yet many others don't, including many of the top programs in the world. Berkeley bioengineering, for example, is unaccredited, yet I think nobody disputes that Berkeley bioengineering is a top program. Stanford and Berkeley materials science are likely unaccredited. Loth indeed would I be to turn down Stanford and Berkeley for, say, University of Alabama Birmingham just because UAB has an accredited mat-sci program and Stanford/Berkeley doesn't.</p>

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<p>sakky, I am in a field where accreditation is optional. What I find is that the powerhouses don't have to have accreditation because they are so far beyond the minimum standards but accreditation keeps the smaller programs on their toes! I thought the ABET accreditation ensured that the curriculum was at least minimally the same??? Interesting!</p>

<p>ClassicRockerDad (love the name btw) - Thanks again, we requested stuff from UMich online and just received a notice that they have an early response program - you submit by 10/21 and they tell you in mid December - non-binding. I think it is just for some programs but that seems worth pursuing as we will have time later to visit if he is accepted. We have dear friends in Ann Arbor, which is comforting, so the only other thing I worry about is the size of UMich! We are also going down to VA to bring son #1 back in 2 weeks and will take son #2 to a few schools on the way back if they are in session or having tours - UMCP, Hopkins, PA schools maybe are on the way back so thanks again for the information. </p>

<p>weenie - I think you have made some good suggestions. We have seen two schools that did not show us engineering facilities and one had an "engineering day" event. We literally had to peak through doors into dark rooms at one school. Also, it is SO hard to tell about the student body in the summer. Another good suggestion to check out an EC. My son's interest in Tufts was definitely lifted by the engineering student tour guide who was also in a comedy troupe. They were practicing when we toured and my son was interested he has starred in some home made comedy flicks for school productions. It was great to see that one could be an engineer and do something else on campus.</p>

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<p>Motherdear - thanks as well. Sounds like a good idea for CMU! I don't know how we are going to visit all of these schools. School starts soon and sports have already started.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
sakky, I am in a field where accreditation is optional. What I find is that the powerhouses don't have to have accreditation because they are so far beyond the minimum standards but accreditation keeps the smaller programs on their toes! I thought the ABET accreditation ensured that the curriculum was at least minimally the same??? Interesting!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>As another case in point, consider Caltech. The only 3 engineering subdisciplines of Caltech that are accredited are ChemE, EE, and ME (and ME has been accredited only since 2004). All other engineering disciplines, including CivE, are instead accredited under the general rubric of "Engineering and Applied Sciences", with no specific disciplinary accreditation. In fact, you can't even earn a BS in Civil Engineering (or Mat Sci, BioE, Aeronautics, etc.) at Caltech. If you complete a major in those fields, what you will get is a BS in 'Engineering and Applied Sciences'. </p>

<p>Yet again, I am quite certain that nobody would deny that Caltech is an engineering powerhouse.</p>

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<p>Can anyone recommend to me schools with good CivilE programs. I have stats similar to the Mother's Son #2 and am looking for a college similar to him, but the college can be focused only on engineering. My ACT score currently is 28, but I will retake and get a 30+ almost for sure. By the way what is ABET? Sorry to ask questions about colleges for me on your thread Mom... Please forgive me... Thanks.</p>

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<p>islanders08 - pls don't apologize - you ask away! This board is here to help you! I hope you get some good answers to your questions - remember we all benefit from the answers and the questions.</p>