<p>JHS, I certainly didn't mean to imply that my son is in any way uncomfortable at the University of Chicago because "only" 15% of the undergraduates may be Jewish. His only point was that there's a noticeably lower percentage of Jewish students there -- and, specifically, fewer of the New York/New Jersey Jewish kids he's used to -- than at some of the roughly equivalent Ivies. But that's as much a factor of the geographic diversity, and the fact that the student body isn't predominantly from the Northeast, as it is of there being a lower percentage of Jewish students.</p>
<p>I'd have to echo the same with Dartmouth. Given that Dartmouth student population tends to be less tri-state area driven than a majority of the Ivies, i would surmise that has something to do with a slightly lower percentage of Jewish students.</p>
<p>exactly - most of the Jewish students in the United States grow up in the tri-state area, with large populations in Southern California and small pockets in Philadelphia and Boston. This is NOT to say that there aren't Jewish communities elsewhere in the US, just that these are the most concentrated locations. Ergo, more Jewish students at Columbia/Yale/Cornell (attract many NY'ers) Brown/Harvard (Boston and NY) and Penn (Philly/NJ) makes sense. Dartmouth is rather isolated, most major Jewish populations are near cities. The only school that should have a larger Jewish population but doesn't is Princeton, which is in New Jersey, but many NJ Jews choose Columbia/Penn. </p>
<p>Not that any of this means anything for particular students, just some broad generalizations.</p>
<p>"I think it would be difficult for other colleges to get on Jewish students' radar screen."</p>
<p>As a parent of a Jewish sophomore who doesn't have a prayer to be admitted to the large majority of schools that attract Jewish students, I for one think that getting the "other colleges" on the radar screen would be very welcome....in fact, Allegheny is now on our very preliminary list to investigate.....</p>
<p>DonnaL,
My S#1 is a grad student at U of C and very involved with the Hillel. I am also surprised that there are relatively few Jewish students at U of C. He has found it somewhat difficult to get decent numbers of students to attend some of the activities, services and dinners.
Part of the issue is the quarter system, which he would like to see abandoned. First day of classes this year was on Rosh Hashanah. He says that next year it's even worse with freshman move-in day falling on Rosh Hashanah. He asked if I would have let him move in on Rosh Hashanah and he already knew the answer. But I do think that geography has a lot to do with the numbers at U of C.</p>
<p>Over the past several decades, much attention has been paid to the lack of Jewish students at Dartmouth College. There are several articles that discuss this & the rumors suggest that it may have been intentional. In an attempt to "correct" Dartmouth's overly conservative & somewhat discriminatory reputation, Dartmouth College appointed the first Jewish president of any of the Ivy League schools, but is still last in number & percentage of Jewish students.
Certainly, Loren Pope wrote about this issue & Dartmouth College while serving as education editor of the New York Times as well as in at least one book--Looking Beyond The Ivy League. Loren Pope didn't like Brown and did not appear to be fond of Dartmouth either. His favorite Ivy was Princeton with respect to his opinion of the best undergraduate education.</p>
<p>I feel that I must convey the experience my D1 and I had while visiting Princeton in 2006. We are Jewish though do not consider ourselves very religious. On the Princeton tour, we were taken into the chapel. This was fine, but when we asked the tour guide about the facilities for the Jewish population, he waved his hand in the air, pointing to the far side of campus and said, "they're somewhere over there." At least with that tour guide (and I know tour guides are all different), it was an insignificant, throw away answer. The implication to us was that the Jewish population was such a small minority as to be relegated and segregated to the far reaches of the campus. We were so put off by it, that my D left Princeton and never even considered applying there. I'm not sure if the attitude was pervasive, but it surely was demeaning.</p>
<p>The Center for Jewish Life is only a couple minutes walk away from my dorm (less than 30 seconds on my bike). For me, its location is quite convenient because most of my science classes are near the building, so I eat lunch there. It would probably be more inconvenient for students if the center was located near the chapel or the north side of campus because it would actually be farther away from the dorms and more tourists are in that area. If you want to talk about far reaches of the campus talk about Forbes dorms or the Engineering building.</p>
<p>I've posted on this thread a few times already, but I can tell you that although I don't understand the small number of Jews at Princeton (given the large Jewish population in the state and surrounding states), the primary reasons there are so few Jews at Dartmouth compared to the other Ivies are:
1. Rural location - many Jewish students grew up in urban/suburban areas. NH is also further from the tri-state area than any other Ivy, and the only other Ivy in a truly rural area is Cornell (which is part-SUNY and NY has a large Jewish population).
2. Smaller overall size - notice that almost no LACs are on that list of top 20 or 30 schools for Jewish kids. Dartmouth has to have a balanced class and it's harder to make rooms for minorities, athletes, legacies, etc....and still admit tons of others.
3. More conservative reputation COMPARED TO OTHER IVIES - ie: Brown, Yale, Columbia are definitely more liberal. While Dartmouth is overall liberal, it is not as totally liberal as its counterparts.</p>
<p>That said, as I said before I'm half Jewish, half Protestant, and Dartmouth is my first choice, over my father's alma mater Columbia, which has a high Jewish population.</p>
<p>Princeton for Jewish kids: Princeton definitely still carries some of the weight of the Hargadon past in it's reputation in the Jewish world as being less friendly to Jews than other selective schools. </p>
<p>Also, the importance of eating clubs muddies the waters somewhat at P -- in the past, at least, some clubs intentionally remained free of Jews. Also, there are all sorts of Jewish kids - some appreciate the existence of a kosher dining option that is separate from the other dining facilities and intend to build their social lives around it (more or less, that would be Orthodox kids) and some are wary of having to choose to identify/eat with Jews at the Center for Jewish Life for every meal. (I realize that students actually can eat some but not all meals at the CJL.) </p>
<p>Also, in general, in recent years among Orthodox day-school graduates, Penn and Columbia have become much preferred to H,Y,P. (D and B were never really on the table for this crew). I can't speak confidently about Cornell - I'll get my insider info from there in a while.</p>
<p>Chicago - I don't quite know why, but being an observant Jew at Chicago has not changed much in 30+ years (dating myself here). It can be done, there's a tight small community, there are more kosher options now than there were then (and there are definitely more veg. options!) but it is not a target for Ortho/seriously observant Jews...</p>
<p>None of this discussion addresses the situation of MOST Jews on these campuses - kids who may appreciate a place to have an occasional (or even regular) Friday night meal, a Passover seder and maybe a Hannukah candle-lighting party. But are not looking to spend 3 meals a day with other observant Jews, and do not need to know that they can be housed in single-sex suites or apts with other observant Jews.</p>
<p>ColdWind,</p>
<p>Dartmouth is far from the school Loren Pope knew. The days of its conservatism died 20 years ago. I don't see how in any way, based on polling numbers and declared voting patterns, that its one of the two most conservative Ivies anymore. Dartmouth and Princeton used to also be the least diverse Ivies 20 years ago. Now both are more diverse a few of the Ivies, including Brown and Cornell. Times have changed.</p>
<p>My daughter's impression of Brown is that almost everyone there is either Jewish or Asian. Last year, when there would be a group of students in a room, someone would yell out "If you are Jewish raise your hand" and almost all the hands would go up. Many of these kids are half Jewish (one parent), and aren't practicing -- so I wonder if those numbers could be even higher.</p>
<p>Coldwind</p>
<p>I really don't think Kemeny was appointed Dartmouth's president because he was Jewish.</p>
<p>Oh, is it Kemeny we are talking about? I thought he got the job simply because he was a brilliant mathematician.</p>
<p>"Oh, is it Kemeny we are talking about? I thought he got the job simply because he was a brilliant mathematician."...and Jewish. ;)</p>
<p>Post #53: Didn't mean to suggest that the president was not qualified in any way to be president, but religion was a factor & it was big news at the time. And the news was promoted by Dartmouth.
About 18 to 24 months ago some CC posters provided links to articles regarding Jews & the Ivy League. If you read them, you might think differently. At least you will know differently.</p>
<p>One of the articles shared on CC about Jews & the Ivies was published in the New Yorker magazine, and another may have been a New York Times piece; both of which were excellent.</p>
<p>Well, at least you weren't referring incorrectly to Freedman. He is often mistakenly referred to as Dartmouth's first Jewish president. Both the Harvard Crimson - after speaking with Freedman, (The</a> Harvard Crimson :: News :: A Milestone of Faith), and Jerome Karabel in his book, "The Chosen" made this mistake. It would seem Freedman played at least some role in promoting this misconception.</p>
<p>He did have real knack for ticking people off.</p>
<p>"
(dated 11/17/98)</p>
<p>Dear President Freedman,</p>
<p>While you are correct to place Dartmouth in the category of anti-Semitic colleges down into — but certainly not beyond — the early 1950s, I think you fail to give credit to those who affected the change. As I'll explain, within the faculty, I would point to Fred Berthold among many; within the administration, President Dickey, Chaplain Unsworth, and others; and, on the Trustees, I would guess Nelson Rockefeller was a major player.</p>
<p>As you know, you are not the first Jewish president of Dartmouth, John Kemeny was, though you are the first practicing Jew to hold the position, and Michael Paley was by no means the first Hillel rabbi; indeed he is irrelevant to the process of change.</p>
<p>It was complete long before he got there. I think to point to the 1980s as the time of change is to err by twenty years or more and it is also to deny credit to the presidency in which the change took place, which was John Dickey's, so far as I can reckon.</p>
<p>Dartmouth had already decided to open the doors to Jews and to Judaism by the late 1950s; only because of such a decision was my appointment in 1964 possible, meaning, by 1963 a profound change was complete. Many Jewish professors were on the faculty before I got there, I would estimate no fewer than 30. That is why I think the process was well underway a good bit before my appointment, as the first Jewish scholar of Judaism at Dartmouth, in 1964-68; that was the work of Fred Berthold. And then there was never a break; beyond me came Steven T. Katz, for about ten years; then Arthur Hertzberg, and then the lesser lights still there.</p>
<p>These are a different indicator of normalization, for, in scholarship, they are really not very important people, therefore Dartmouth has normalized the study of Judaism, doesn't demand superstars, and is happy with rather ordinary types such as it has appointed.</p>
<p>In the beginning they would make a Judaism appointment only if they could get Abraham Heschel (language that was used just prior to my appointment!) The sign of normality is that a mediocre scholar teaches a routine subject. As to Hillel (with or without teaching), David Altshuler was paid by Dartmouth to teach Hebrew — the first director so far as I know — and there were other Hillel directors before Michael Paley.</p>
<p>When I came to Dartmouth, there were practicing Jews on the faculty, typified by Bernie Getz for religious Jews and Kal Silvert for secular ones; they stand for many articulate and forthright Jews at Dartmouth. I was treated as an asset, promoted into tenure after a year after I arrived as an assistant professor, and to keep me, they were ready to make me a full professor in 1967.</p>
<p>The Tucker Foundation, moreover, was most interested in serving Jewish studies via Judaism through that period. Dick Unsworth, then the director, could not have been more committed. The chairman of the Religion Department, Fred Berthold, was a key player through the 1950's and 1960's (and beyond) in making Jews welcome and wanted at Dartmouth.</p>
<p>That is why, not knowing what is in the archives, I should guess that the real shift took place in the movement from Hopkins to John Dickey.</p>
<p>Nelson Rockefeller was a major influence in that presidency, and I would not be at all surprised if he played a role in the decision, and it clearly was a decision, to abandon the anti-Semitic policy of Hopkins.</p>
<p>Since it was in that presidency that I was appointed and tenured, and since Dickey himself was succeded by a person known to be of Jewish origin, John Kemeny, we have to identify Dickey as the turning point. I don't know what was said or done to affect the change, I can point only to the timing of the changes. At any rate, Hopkins would not have appointed a professor (Jewish or otherwise) to teach about Judaism, and he certainly would not have appointed a Jew to do the work.</p>
<p>Whether persons identified as Jews (as distinct from persons of Jewish origin, e.g., by the Neuremberg laws) could get appointments in Hopkins time I don't know. I remember, when I came, being told that the first Jew (not apostate, like Rosenstock-Huessy) to be tenured at Dartmouth was a professor of math, but I don't remember his name; he was from the 1930s or early 1940s, I think. At any rate, the real changes took place in the 1950s, no later, and to them Michael Paley and you for that matter really are irrelevant. You are about two academic generations too late to matter.</p>
<p>Sincerely,</p>
<p>Dr. Jacob Neusner
Professor of Religion, Bard College
Distinguished Research Professor of Religious Studies, University of South Florida"</p>
<p>I took a Judaism course with Steve Katz (Department</a> of Religion • Boston University • College and Graduate School of Arts and Sciences) when I was at Dartmouth. He made a point of telling us that the non jewish kids in the class would have an advantage over most of the jewish kids - because we wouldn't have anything to unlearn. :) He was an excellent prof.</p>
<p>Could Neusner possibly have mistaken 'affect' for 'effect' repeatedly? Say it ain't so, Tigger, or I'll cry all night.</p>
<p>Other than that, thank you very much for posting the letter. Good stuff! Especially enjoyed the 'lesser lights' comment.</p>
<p>Coldwind</p>
<p>January 24, 1970
New York Time
29 paragraphs
By M. A. Farber</p>
<p>"Dartmouth Picks a new President</p>
<p>Dr. John Kemeny, Leading Mathematician, Gets Post"</p>
<p>paragraph 7 - "The educator, who was being considered for the presidency of City College here, is believed to be the first immigrant and the first person of Jewish family background to head an Ivy League university."</p>
<p>This is how BIG NEWS is treated? I don't think so. The news was so big that Karabel managed to miss the fact that Kemeny was jewish entirely so that anyone now citing him as a source will report that Myerson was the first jewish ivy league president and Freedman was Dartmouth's first jewish president.</p>
<p>The Times did a followup a week later noting that the past week had both the Kemeny and Myerson appointments plus the news that a catholic was the front runner for the Columbia job.</p>
<p>"In folklore, the Ivy League colleges are the symbol of old-school-tie tradition and rigidity. Their leadership is seen as the mirror image of the Establishment - conservative, Protestant, 1776 and all that.
Last week, however, there were developments that contradicted the legend. ..."</p>
<p>...</p>
<p>"The Jewish-Catholic aspect of the current news developments is merely a striking shorthand for other important factors of institutional change.</p>
<p>Dr. Kemeny, as a computer pioneer, represents the technological age. His codification of basic computer language for use by all students as part of general education signals a change in the idea of what constitutes the modern educated man. as a philosopher - mathematician, he personifies efforts to unite the two cultures of science and the humanities."</p>
<p>I've yet to find anything indicating that "religion was a factor" in Kemeny's hiring from now or then. The Big News here in terms of religion was that it NO LONGER played a factor as evidenced by the hiring and serious consideration of non-Protestants.</p>
<p>Broad theme though is "the times they are a-changing".</p>