<p>My D and I visited Emerson, and were very impressed with the facilities and location of the MT program. However, when we asked about the cut program (we were told they prefer to call it a "re-audition program"), they down-played it. They said they have an incoming class of about 25 MT kids, and since the national attrition rate for MT is 10%, they feel as if they are justified in limiting their junior class to 16, b/c when you subtract 10% of 25 from 25, you get 16. (Yes, I know...I had to bite my tongue from suggesting they require mandatory math classes for all their students....the way I see it, 10% less of 25 is 22.5, not 16.) Anyway, they explained that the senior class and junior class had natural attrition down to 16. When I asked about the sophomore class this year, they admitted that they had 19 talented and committed students in MT, so 3 would be cut. I asked why they didn't make accommodations for those extra 3, and they said they would not, under any circumstances, have more than 16 students.</p>
<p>I have two questions. First, does this attrition rate seem high, or is it like this in all programs? And second, does the cut program scare anyone else? I completely understand when a school cuts people who are not committed, or are not growing as a performer. But to cut 3 talented and committed students b/c of a 16 student limit is just .... frightening. Is it even worth applying to schools who employ this type of cut system? What if your child is in a class that has 25 committed and talented students, and there is no attrition? It seems to me that only a handful of CCers applied to Emerson this year, and no one has chosen it as their final choice (yet). Is the cut system the reason? I would really appreciate thoughts on this....thanks.</p>
<p>From someone who just went though this past year’s audition season with my daughter . . . there is no way I’d want to do it all over again if she were to be cut from a program. I don’t care how good a program is, there is no circumstance where I would want my D to have that damocles hanging over her head. </p>
<p>We live in the West, and there is a school one plane ride away that we looked at pretty closely at first. After closer inspection, and reading here on CC, we learned they have cuts such as those you wrote of, and we immediately took it off her list. In my opinion, I would never be on board with my daughter applying to, or auditioning for a program that cuts.</p>
<p>I think Emerson is a fantastic school and I would never let fear of the cut prevent applying to it. Not in Emerson’s case and not the way they apply it (which I think is different from the school that ^^^ is likely referring to above. If it is the school I’m thinking of, that’s a whole other animal.)</p>
<p>I don’t know if the attrition rate is high or not compared to other BFA programs, but Emerson has both a BFA and a BA (in acting) which some people on their own decide to move into to open up more room in their academic experience for study abroad, double major etc.</p>
<p>I agree that the three committed MTs who will be cut sounds like a sad situation but the best you can do is ask yourself if you honestly think your daughter would ever be one of those three. Has she always been a strong and committed student with an excellent work ethic? Is her talent undeniable? Is she generous and supportive while interacting with fellow students and faculty? If the answer is “yes” to all three that would be student that I’d be willing to roll the dice on.</p>
<p>If you think about it, it’s all a gamble anyway. Your daughter could enroll school with a BFA that doesn’t have a cut system and decide for whatever reason to cut herself and switch schools or major in something else. </p>
<p>Going into to this year’s application cycle, Emerson was one of my daughter’s three top choice schools. (Fortunately she is attending one of those three in the fall.) It was her first audition back in November she was nervous and it wasn’t her best. She was accepted early action but into the BA in Acting, not the BFA in MT which she had wanted. She did not want to be on the outside looking in to the upper level studio classes that the BFAs take so unfortunately Emerson went from being a top choice to her safety school. Had she gotten into the BFA, I could easily have posted Emerson as her final choice school and I wouldn’t have even blinked about the cut system for her.</p>
<p>I thought of another point. How is this risk any different than the kids that start out at Nortwestern (as an example) in BA theatre and hope to secure a spot in their MT certificate program? Not all of them will be successful in that endeavor so if you go there hoping to study MT, you’re taking a risk. Or in another example, one of the many fine BFA programs (like UC Irvine) where you start out in a BA theatre track and audition AFTER you are already attending the school for a spot in the BFA. Not everyone that wants the BFA will makes it there either. It’s the flip side but the risk is the same. In both those examples, I’d be asking myself the same questions as I would in Emerson’s case: based on who my daughter is a student, her talent and her behavior towards others, do I think she’d get in (or in the case of Emerson, get cut?)</p>
<p>I agree with kksmom, I would never recommend a school that applies cuts like this. If the natural attrition works as stated by the math-challenged individual at Emerson, then a cut policy shouldn’t be necessary. To accept a group of students knowing that you are going to eliminate more than a third of them is, in my opinion, wrong. This type of policy has nothing to do with students having the proper work ethic, attending class, etc. It’s a policy of eliminating a large percentage of the entering class, regardless of how well they’re doing, if in fact, they have a plan to reduce the class size by that large number. For those of us who have been on CC for a long time, we’ve certainly seen instances of kids who have been the victims of this type of cut system who had good grades and good feedback, and yet, were still cut loose and having to scurry around looking for another school, starting the process all over again. No one expects that their kid will be one of those cuts but the fact remains that the parents of all those kids who were cut, would have been very wrong.</p>
<p>I think it is a question of what risk(s) are you willing to assume.</p>
<p>We felt our daughter needed enough places to apply that she would be willing to attend so that she would at least get into one of them. She had a list of criteria that eliminated every school that was relatively small and/or not in a major urban area. There were also regional preferences etc.</p>
<p>But instead of taking the risk on a school like Emerson which fit her criteria, cuts and all, she could have taken the risk to apply to one of the many great MT programs with no cuts in a small towns or in regional areas that she didn’t think were a good match for her. Perhaps it could have worked out and she would have loved it. But the odds were she’d be unhappy and that was a risk, she/we were not willing to take. </p>
<p>In this crazy process, all of us need enough schools on the list to up the odds of getting in somewhere. Only you can decide what risks are worth it and meanwhile do everything that you can to end up in a school that looks (at least on paper) like it is the perfect risk-free fit. But of course your kid could still be unhappy a year later… that’s always a risk.</p>
<p>@halflokum, the feeling I got from talking to the admissions people at Emerson were that ALL 19 of the remaining sophomores were talented, committed, and growing as students. Three of these students will get cut. These students have a good worth ethic, their talent is good, etc. It seems to me that the cuts are random. I don’t know how they do it - do they pick names out of a hat? Do they have too many soprano ingenue types, and therefore one of those will go? Do they rank them somehow? I don’t know. Again, if there is a cut program that is based on growth, attitude, or something tangible, I do not have a problem with it. And I think NW is different…you go into that program knowing there is an audition at the end of freshman year, knowing you may not make it, but choosing that program anyway. NW’s audition results in 25 students who they think are most talented and suited for the MT certificate program. At Emerson, some of the students are not aware of the nature of the cut program (whether they should be aware is another story), and they attend the program assuming that once accepted, as long as they do well, they are in the program for 4 years. Even those who are aware are facing a possible cut that is not necessarily based on talent or work ethic. It is the randomness of it that scares me, I guess…my gut reaction was the same as alwaysamom and kksmom5…</p>
<p>I think students who choose Northwestern or UCI and probably Point Park decide that the education and training available at these institutions is worthwhile even if they don’t ultimately get the BFA or MT certificate. There are only 5 seniors in the BFA class at Irvine this year. Boys and Girls - total 5. However, the classes, with just a few exceptions, are available to all. It’s a work your way up mentality that’s very different from a pre-planned cut system. And if you don’t get it…most obviously don’t…you still got most of the training and have a degree from a highly respected university. Interestingly, UCI’s most notable alumni do not have the BFA.</p>
<p>We eliminated any such programs and I am so glad we did. My son would have been out on his back side had he been in any of them. He had some very rough stretches, not so much with the programs but with college issues, depression, behavior, stupidity and it was tough enough making the university standards not to be kicked out. Having to go through the whole process of auditions and applications again after problems would have been harrowing.</p>
<p>@monkey13. You should go with your gut then. I’m merely presenting how we looked at it. Our gut said, we’d roll the dice. It was a risk we were willing to take in order to attend such a fine program in a city that we absolutely love. Well in the end, for us it was moot but as I said, had she gotten into the BFA instead of the BA program, she “might” have picked it.</p>
<p>No simple answer here. You have to know your kid – one of my boys might have been up for that kind of challenge; one of my boys ABSOLUTELY not. Ultimately, yes, they each auditioned for a few school(s) with “cuts” (or other benign-sounding versions of cuts) but those schools rapidly moved down the list as non-cut schools accepted them. Would they have gone to one as a “last resort”? Sure, but in the end they had better (and what we felt would be more nurturing/supportive) options. Ultimately, this is all so personal, based on each student’s individual needs, wants – even finances. If you’re still in “list-making” mode, I don’t see the drawback in including a “cut school” on your list – it will just be yet another aspect to factor-in once you’re weighing all your acceptances. (A final add-on: When considering a school with a cut, or a promotional, or a BA-to-BFA audition at the end of sophomore year, ask what options are available within the school if the student doesn’t make it. Can they stay and study theatre as a BA? Or must they leave the program? Do your research and you’ll be well-prepared come decision-time.) Best wishes to your D. You’re embarking on a great adventure.</p>
<p>When my daughter went through the audition process last year, we conscientiously made the decision NOT to apply to Emerson or any of the other schools that had a well known cut program. At the time, I had reports of classes with way more than 3 that were cut from Emerson, and it had nothing to do with grades, talent, attendance, skills, or enthusiasm. For whatever reason, they are unable to adjust their instruction to the size of group that they admit. There are many schools out there who do accept large classes and then adjust accordingly, like Hartt, Boco and others. There are so many available schools with wonderful or growing MT programs;I suggest you spend your time researching those (do a lot of research off the #2 post on the Big College List pinned to the top of this forum) instead. AS a previous poster mentioned, many of the schools where students are admitted to the MT program the end of freshman year still offer wonderful instruction in drama and voice to those who don’t make it, like Northwestern.</p>
<p>D refused to put any schools with cut programs on her list. Her rationale? “If I am good enough for them to admit me, they’d better think I’m good enough to keep!”</p>
<p>Leave Emerson on the list for now. It is a local audition for you and she can schedule one of the first dates so , in addition to her mocks, it will give her an idea of what college auditions are like. </p>
<p>IMH… it is better to audition, get accepted and decline the offer than to NOT audition and come out with limited options in the end.</p>
<p>I cannot speak to Hartt’s cut system but Boco does NOT ADJUST their class size in any way. Boco uses what they call a promotional system after sophomore year. Rarely, and I mean rarely is anyone ever cut purely on talent progression. In every case, the decision not to promote is due solely to the student’s lack of effort or failing grades. In every case, the student is put on probation and has a full semester to make the changes necessary to continue on. On average, only 3 to 5 students are actually not promoted on from the accepted freshman class. </p>
<p>Life at Boco is rigorous and hard-core musical theater at least 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. You have a natural withdrawal from students who thought they wanted this kind of curriculum and decide after a year that it was not what they thought it would be. The second most common factor that leads to withdrawal at Boco is financial change. The school is very expensive and sometimes a change in parents financial situtation may make the school unaffordable.</p>
<p>The average retention rate for universities in the US is 75%. In a perfect world Boco looks to start with 55 incoming freshman and graduate 35 – 40 or 64% - 73% (slightly below the average).</p>
<p>@flossy>>> "I think students who choose Northwestern or UCI and probably Point Park decide that the education and training available at these institutions is worthwhile even if they don’t ultimately get the BFA or MT certificate. "</p>
<p>Likewise I am sure there are BA students at Emerson that reached the same conclusion. Emerson doesn’t hide their cut system for the BFA nor do they throw you out of the school if you don’t get to continue. Students can still decide to attend there knowing this is a possiblity because they feel it is worth it.</p>
<p>We took Emerson off my D’s list last year for that reason exactly. Plenty of other good programs that she could apply to that didn’t have this issue. Sophomore evals can be stressful enough without knowing in advance that they do cut. Just what was best for my D.</p>
<p>I think that as long as a student goes into the program knowing fully what the cut system is, and is willing to risk it, then that’s OK. My problem with Emerson, is that they cut purely on the basis of numbers, rather than work ethic, attitude, talent, teachability, etc. If they end up with 20 equally talented, hard-working students after the natural attrition, then they will cut 4 for no reason other than they allow only 16 in the junior class. I don’t think anyone can predict whether or not they will be on that cut list due to the randomness of it, and knowing how hard it it to be accepted to any BFA MT program, and how difficult it would be to transfer with out starting over, I can’t imagine taking the risk. </p>
<p>The difference with NW or UCI is that students enter knowing full well they will eventually have to go thru an audition process to progress into MT; quite a different situation.</p>
<p>I (me myself I) don’t see the situations as different because there is a risk in either scenario of not being able to study MT if that is your goal. In either case if you fail, you could still end up with a theatre BA at a school you liked well enough to pick it. But I absolutely get the idea of being comfortable with one side of the risk (still needing to audition for MT) vs. the other (avoiding getting cut.) It’s a personal choice.</p>
<p>I wonder how the odds compare. Is it easier to stay in a cut program than it is to get into a MT program after-the-fact? </p>
<p>There are many hurdles yet to climb that you can’t be certain of when you choose/seek a school. At UCLA which is a fantastic academic school with truly stellar and well-connected theatre faculty, you can be admitted as a freshman on the MT track of the theatre BA and as long as you do the work successfully, you will not be cut. (They will certainly cut you if you slack off but it isn’t a deliberate numbers game.) But there is no guarantee that you will ever be cast in a show and they are very up front about that. Is that a risk you’re willing to take to go to a top notch school with excellent training and faculty? Some people are. My daughter was not but she certainly might have been had she come out of the other side of the application process and felt it was her best option. </p>
<p>Why close doors now on any school that otherwise you seem to like just because of things that may or may not happen down the road? A lot can change from when you start the application process until you get to the finish line and you don’t yet know what it is you don’t know or what it is you’ll truly care about in the end. First, you‘ve got to get in.</p>
<p>I believe at both of the schools mentioned you can continue to study MT and reaudition. Being cut without cause would be tragic. But yeah, why not audition and then choose between the choices you have in hand? There will be upsides and downsides to most.</p>