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<p>College is so expensive, and there are so many colleges— why would I <em>not</em> want a college that has both the right academics and a social culture that suits my child? I grant that sometimes a student has to compromise, but I don’t know why a family would go into the process assuming they have to compromise.</p>
<p>^^ Agree with Carinal Fang on this point.</p>
<p>I would agree with Cardinal Fang in that I want a college who doesn’t just turn a blind eye to the alcohol usage on campus. And I do think my son found a school where there was a good balance. Key word here is my son found the school. After all, it’s his education at this point. Would I want him to choose a school on party potential? no. But that’s where hopefully my influence over the past 12 or so years of making education a priority would have some influence. But, the way I see it, it was never my job to pick or even make up his list of schools. It had to fit him. For all the parents who want a dry campus, are their kids making that their priority as well? If so, great. If not, perhaps there should be some parental self-inquiry as to what you’re so afraid of? I know my kid is no angel, but he is also working extremely hard and knows what his priorities are.</p>
<p>I don’t want a dry campus, and I don’t think my son does either, though he’s a non-drinker and not in any hurry to change that. But we both want a campus where most students act like non-alcoholic adults, which means that their lives do not revolve around drinking and when they do drink, getting drunk to the point of serious physical or mental impairment is the exception and not the rule. </p>
<p>Most of the schools we’ve looked at so far seemed likely to fit this description to some degree–only a few had the feel of a place where kids get blotto regularly–but the one that stood out as having a relatively sober (but not somber) vibe was Brandeis.</p>
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<p>While I agree that it’s the child who should decide whether the school is right, I wonder why this always comes up in discussions about drinking and schools, but not in discussions about other aspects of school. If I posted asking about schools where most students played intramural sports, I don’t think I’d have posters saying, “But Fang, are you sure that’s what Fang Jr wants? Even if only a few kids play intramural sports at his school, he can find them. He has to learn to live in a society where most adults are not on sports teams.”</p>
<p>P.S. Nightchef, which other schools seemed to be places where students acted like non-alcoholic adults (great description, btw)?</p>
<p>^Haha, cute Fang. You know, you really have to watch out for those intramural sports players–getting involved with them could potentially ruin your life down the road.</p>
<p>I think the extremes get highlighted too often. I think the vast majority of students even at the big party schools act like non-alcoholic adults for the most part. It’s just difficult for students who do not drink at all to find their fit at a place where drinking even moderately is the social norm. </p>
<p>My D is a non-drinker and doesn’t much care for parties. She’s not a super nerd or a social outcast either, but it did take some effort on her part to ferret out people who didn’t want to party–woo hoo. She didn’t find her people in her residence hall either in her first year. She had to join a lot of groups that focused on intellectual pursuits and volunteerism, and even then it took some effort. She couldn’t just go up to someone and ask “do you drink, no, would you be my friend?” That would be weird. Plus just because two people don’t drink doesn’t automatically make a friendship happen. People naturally reveal themselves over time and it also requires some patience and discernment to be “different.” </p>
<p>It’s not unreasonable for parents to want their kids to be happy while they’re away at college–costs aside. Don’t parents want their kids to be happy, in general?</p>
<p>I am also getting frustrated with these alcohol threads. I always click on them hoping to find people talk about colleges where “drinking is not a HUGE part of the culture”. Here is what I expect for my daughter:</p>
<ol>
<li> I expect that, even as a minor, she will drink alcohol occasionally (no more than a couple of drinks a night, no more than a two nights a week).</li>
<li> I expect that she will not want to drink too much or too often.</li>
<li> I expect that she will have plenty of ways to enjoy herself that do not involve alcohol.</li>
<li> I expect that alcohol will not negatively impact her academic progress.</li>
<li> I expect that the vast majority of kids will be like her, i.e, they will drink alcohol occasionally (as defined above) and that they will rarely get overly intoxicated. Of course, there will be a few heavy drinkers, but these will be a minority.</li>
<li> I expect that she will not drive under the influence or get into a car with such a driver.</li>
<li> I expect her to emerge from college without damaging her liver too much, and without becoming an alcoholic.</li>
</ol>
<p>Am I being too naive in my expectations?</p>
<p>Do we need to avoid certain colleges?</p>
<p>Do I need to be looking at these alcohol threads and making notes?</p>
<p>My main concern is item#5. Are there some colleges where the majority of students are into drinking a lot?</p>
<p>Great post(#27), vicariousparent. </p>
<p>Sometimes I think we parents are talking across one another in these drinking threads. Very few colleges have no drinkers. But I wanted my son to avoid a school with a drinking culture, which I think might have such misfeatures as:</p>
<ol>
<li>Friday classes noticeably less well attended than other classes because students are hung over.</li>
<li>Students frequently run across vomit from drunk students, or encounter students vomiting.</li>
<li>Drunk students trash public spaces in dorms.</li>
<li>Students who drink typically consume more than four or five drinks in an evening. </li>
<li>Seeing a student unconscious from drinking is not uncommon.</li>
<li>Drinkers deride non-drinkers.</li>
<li>Female students can expect to be accosted by drunken male students. Female students need to take precautions not to be assaulted by drunken male students.</li>
</ol>
<p>Those seem to be unpleasant misfeatures that I’d want a child of mine to be able to avoid. I don’t care if my son’s friends and fellow students drink moderately. I don’t care if he’s in a group of students some of whom are having one or two drinks (provided they are careful to keep out of sight of the law). I think it’s unlikely that my son will drink, but I wouldn’t care if he did, as long as he drank moderately.</p>
<p>^Both Cardinal Fang and Vicarious Parent have great posts on this. It’s important to talk with kids about the risks of drinking, first of their own drinking, and second, unfortunately, the risks to them of other people’s drinking. </p>
<p>At the risk of belaboring the obvious: isn’t at least part of a teen’s attitude towards drinking reflected by what he or she has seen at home, and particularly in parents and community, over the past fifteen or more years?</p>
<p>Cardinal Fang, I hesitate to comment on the other schools because most of them we visited during the summer when there were few students around, and so our impressions are pretty subjective, based largely on reading between the lines of tour guide comments, and that sort of thing. We had a little more information to work with in the case of Brandeis, having visited during an open house during the school year when you can get a better sense of the campus culture. Just seeing how alert and energetic the campus seemed at 9AM on a Monday did not seem compatible with the idea of a party school.</p>
<p>vicariousparent–great list of desiderata. That pretty much sums it up.</p>
<p>Some students want something more interesting to do than watch people stumble and throw up on Friday & Saturday nights. It certainly is understandable that these students might want to avoid campuses with little to do other than than get drunk or watch people get drunk. D was heavily “recruited” by a school that, by its own students’ admission, has a social life that revolves primarily around getting wasted. Now, students she spoke with told her that she wouldn’t be looked down on if she didn’t drink … but she really didn’t think it would be much fun to be sober in the midst of a bunch of drunken fools. She crossed that one off her list early in the process. </p>
<p>She does attend a school now that has a party reputation. However, there is more to do than party at this school. That’s really the key for her. </p>
<p>It’s not so much that there aren’t like-minded people at any college. It’s more that there is something interesting for them to do on a weekend.</p>
<p>Vicarious - Your expectations are very similar to mine. Would I love if my S never chose to drink? Absolutely. And I mean that. However, I also know that this is still a kid who gets up early on a Sunday to get a jump on his work for Monday. Besides having the flu and being in quarantine for two days, he has only missed one class so far this semester.</p>
<p>So instead of worrying about the drinking culture - which his school does indeed party - perhaps the question would be less open to leaps of judgements if the question was more about what kind of academic or study culture a school has. Most schools who “study the most,” do not have students who will last long if so much of their time (weekend or otherwise) is dedicated to being blotto. Also, just because students might engage in some drinking does not, by default, mean they’re all puking their guts out on a typical Friday or Saturday night. Destructive drinking is a very different animal and I am sure we all hope that our kids attend schools where that isn’t the cultural norm. </p>
<p>The problem with threads like this is that it is often assumed that if there is drinking it is ONLY destructive to person and property. I honestly don’t think that is typical at most schools that have a reputation for high academics. Certainly there are always exceptions or the story about the “one kid who…” but even a dry school (or a damp one) have those. What I would worry about, more so than what is said on these boards, is if the administration says there aren’t any issues of that kind on campus. That, to me, is a sign of denial. And if they’re denying it, they can’t be addressing it.</p>
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<p>Let’s go to the tape, shall we?</p>
<p>"The so-called collateral damage from irresponsible drinking is all too familiar to students, staff, and administrators who must regularly, literally and figuratively, clean up the mess. Dorm and property damage, disrespect of staff and fellow students, fighting, and sexual assaults are just some of the all-too-common incidents associated with alcohol abuse on campus. Our public safety office reports that more than half the calls they receive—more than half of all their calls—are related to alcohol or substance abuse."</p>
<p>“Almost a third of our first-years who took part in a survey on alcohol use said that within two weeks of completing the survey they had experienced a blackout—a period of amnesia that can last for seconds, minutes, hours, and/or days that prohibits the natural development of memory and recollection of recent events.”</p>
<p>This is from an address given by the President of Middlebury to graduating seniors in 2008. No one would doubt the academic strength of Middlebury’s students, yet when they’re not studying, a lot of them are drinking a lot. I find it hard to believe that Middlebury is unique in this respect.</p>
<p>[05/24/08:</a> Baccalaureate Address 2008](<a href=“Ronald D. Liebowitz | Middlebury”>Ronald D. Liebowitz | Middlebury)</p>
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<p>The vast majority of students do not attend “named schools” and do quite well getting a job, thank you. I think you will find that those , as you refer to them “lesser known” schools where not much drinking exists also do a great job in educating children and preparing them for the workforce</p>
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<p>Well said Cardinal Fang</p>
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<p>My guess is it does because those who make the comment do not see this as an important issue from their perspective. Perhaps they have a child attending a party hardy school, or one who gets drunk often - or perhaps they themselves did and they can’t understand why other parents and students would prefer something different</p>
<p>I don’t understand why people have to comment about and denigrate others who simply want a list of colleges where drinking is not a big part of the culture.</p>
<p>^Yes, I read what I wrote and it is not what I meant at all. Of course you can get a job, and a great job, from a lesser known school. Christian, and other religious schools, place graduates in very well respected jobs.</p>
<p>The gist of what I was trying to say was–If you want to go to a top ranked school, they are usually fairly liberal in social policies. You may find a lot of drinking. If you want very conservative social policies, with much less or no drinking, these schools are not usually listed on any of the top 50 list. There is a trade-off.</p>
<p>For some professions, not graduating from a top or target school could make it very difficult to get a job. Obviously top schools open doors for jobs and graduate schools. If not, why would so many students want to attend and most are rejected?</p>
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<p>I will agree that a third is a lot… BUT! It is still not the majority. And I stand by my assertion that drinking (in and of itself) is not ONLY destructive in nature. I do not doubt for one moment that on just about every college campus in the country there are kids who have absolutely no idea what their limits are and/or think it’s funny to smash something in which they have no clue as to how much it costs or who owns it. (If there is malicious intent, quite honestly I question their upbringing)</p>
<p>My point is that if you have to study all week long you will not last long if you are a 24/7 partier. AND what you hope is that there are groups on campus that associate themselves with a non-alcoholic view of fun that you can be a part of, especially for the weekends. If you aspire to do well in school, it will not take long to figure out where on the spectrum you will want to be. </p>
<p>Also… first semester freshman have a tendency to not have a clue. And I think those first couple of weeks are somewhat like Rumspringa for the Amish. Seriously. I have a great respect for the Amish, but Rumspringa is, FOR SOME, quite the awakening to the modern word. Take a bunch of over-achieving recent high school graduates who are, for all intents and purposes, completely unsupervised for the first time in their lives following a year that consumed their very soul (college admissions) and there isn’t all the best judgement going on.</p>
<p>The best you can do as parents is to talk a lot about limits and the dangers of excessive drinking- short AND long term - leading up to college (remember, college visits with parents usually include a lot of travel (aka) alone time). We can debate this subject until the cows come home, but in the end we’re still dealing with reality. I personally think we need some legislation that deals with this reality and that 70% of our youth are headed to college. </p>
<p>I agree that Midd is hardly alone in their issues. Since last year’s Baccalaureate address, however, Middlebury is trying to push a more comprehensive community responsibility initiative. While some of this has been forced by budget cuts (and so you can no longer just drag a drunk friend over to the the no-longer-24hr health center and leave them there), some is just good common sense to quit NOT talking about it and open up a dialogue. I have no idea how well that’s going except to know that changes in a culture certainly don’t change overnight. I wish there was less drinking or at least far more responsible drinking on college campuses, but let me be clear - it feels just as denigrating to be accused of not caring, condoning or whatever else is said to parents who merely recognize that drinking occurs on college campuses nationwide and trusts their kid has developed or at least is developing a sense of personal responsibility.</p>
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<p>Wait, what? Are you seriously suggesting that the other two thirds of the freshmen, the ones who hadn’t blacked out in the last two weeks, are not drinking to excess? Are you suggesting that our standard for “doesn’t drink excessively” should be “didn’t black out in the last two weeks”? Isn’t that a bit of a low bar?</p>
<p>It seems to me that if a third of the freshmen are drinking so much that they blacked out in the last two weeks, we can credibly assume that a majority of the freshmen binge drink, but some of them had their last blackout three weeks ago, or just passed out without blacking out the last few times, or vomited all over thier rooms instead of passing out, or just stumbled around pawing young drunk women, or just got quietly blotto. Blacking out is not normal. Many people go through their entire lives never having blacked out from drinking too much.</p>
<p>It just seem like people are just going round and round, kind of like the political cafe. Where is the list, as the original purpose of this thread?</p>
<p>Cardinal… once again, you take my words somewhat out of context. Give me a flippin break. No, I do not think blacking out is in any way norma or acceptable. How completely insulting of you to suggest such a thing. What I was saying is that I do not think this is the majority in a general way. I agree it is excessive and wrong, but I do not agree that one can infer what 2/3rds of the campus has done based on what 1/3 has done. So no, I don’t agree your assumptions there are credible in the least. And I am not going to assume that every kid who drinks too much is out there pawing young drunk women. As the mother of a son, however, I will also tell you that the young drunk women (or those who pretend they are drunk) are HARDLY innocents, many of whom use their state to throw themselves at young men - sober or drunk - intentionally. </p>
<p>But I am backing away from this discussion and we’ll see, instead of talking principal, if people can give you the list of schools where weekend drinking does not occur OR is very rare. It was my assumption that if you are busting your ass 5-6 days a week, you can’t spend days recovering from hangovers and still plan on doing well at schools with such high academic expectations, let alone the parents paying for it.</p>
<p>The point was there are lots of OTHER venues and goings on during the weekends in which to make friends and have a rich social life. If that’s not good enough or provides a way for your kid to fit in, then so be it. As I said, cultural change takes time and so even with efforts being made, I doubt things will change dramatically in the next few years. After all… there’ll be a whole new crop of incoming freshman next year whose parents may have been standing over them for the past 18 years not letting them make a move without their full knowledge and consent. I am sure at least a third of them will do some really stupid things, especially first semester. :)</p>
<p>^^^^^ oldfort -</p>
<p>I think that’s where the problem lies. Honestly, I just don’t think there can ever be a real or accurate “list.” </p>
<p>It’s just such a matter of personal fit. If you’re a non-drinker at a college with a big party scene, but your lucky enough to find your “people” early on, it’s all good. If you’re at one of the schools on any of the lists provided here, but they don’t fit you for other reasons, or you’re unfortunate enough to not “click” with the people you’re meeting (whether they’re drinkers or not), you’re out of luck. I do think there are always plenty of non-drinking kids (and very happy non-drinking kids) at even the biggest party schools.</p>
<p>And even after reading that Middlebury info, I still personally think the academically challenging schools are maybe a little bit of a safer bet if you’re looking for more kids keeping their drinking “reasonable” (for lack of a better term. I realize to some people NO underage drinking is ever reasonable.) But the bottom line is, it’s hard to keep up with school work, be in class every day, and still partake in the super heavy drinking scene that most people want their kids to avoid.</p>
<p>As always, just my little ole opinion here…</p>