SCOTUS: Fisher II oral arguments

I am no fan of Scalia, but he was reciting the CC mantra that fit is important, albeit doing so in a very crude fashion. Anyway, Peter Arcidiacono and a co-author have a review article entitled, “Affirmative Action and the Quality-Fit Tradeoff,” which is forthcoming in the Journal of Economic Literature. One snippet makes clear his argument for how mismatch could arise.

http://public.econ.duke.edu/~psarcidi/aa.pdf
So, his argument is that schools, which have better information about students’ likelihood of success, are cynically enrolling some students with lower likelihood of success.

@lookingforward , @bluebayou is correct, low SES admits do not of their nature touch on a protected classification… So yes, there is something unique about blacks and hispanics within the context of this litigation. It is just not what you are implying. If the policy at UT was to reach out for low SES kids in general, there would be no cognizable constitutional case. It is the fact that the school is openly seeking to admit people of a particular race that raises the issue. For the record, I was a low SES admit to a snooty east coast school. I was horribly unprepared. Never heard of an AP class, my trig professor (highest math offered in the school) was an alcoholic who slept through class, fights would break out in classrooms with regularity, etc. Very difficult transition both academically and socially. No way I would have got through it without the tutoring and handholding provided by the athletic department. I am sure it would have been far more difficult if I was also an underrepresented minority. So maybe I am pre disposed to believe there is some merit in the theory that kids who are not prepared for a rigorous academic environment fair worse, statistically, than those from suburban schools with Math Olympics, IB, etc., etc. The theory fits with my personal experience, so it must be generally correct, right?

It might help to realize that I am a lawyer, so my perspective on questions like this is simply different than most. Probably like your perspective on admissions (from what I have gleaned from other threads) is simply different than the perspective of those of us who do not live in that world day after day.

As an example, I never said that I wanted to eliminate race in holistic admissions. What I said was that the use of race, even if only as one of many factors, requires proof that the means chosen (reference to race) is narrowly tailored to achieve the compelling state interest (a diverse student body). No one (not even Scalia and Thomas) seriously contends that a diverse student body is not a compelling state interest, and this case is not going to be decided on that basis. Where there is broad disagreement is on the use of preferences to achieve the desired end. Because the use of race implicates a protected class, the burden is on the school to prove that the means chosen is the most narrowly tailored (least discriminatory) to achieve the desired end. Put another way, the use of race in any form in making admissions decisions is presumptively unconstitutional until and unless the school can prove that the use of race is necessary. This is a fundamental point, and should be kept in mind to really understand what is going on in these cases.

The reason I keep banging on this is that I am, perhaps arrogantly and certainly unsuccessfully, trying to explain why Fisher I is a consequential case in its own right, and independent of what occurs in Fisher II. Many of you are missing that from Bakke to Fisher I schools received great deference from the Court when they would assert that the use of race in the particular fashion under review was narrowly tailored. In Gruetter, Kennedy wrote separately in part to highlight that he believed this granting of deference (effectively a presumption in favor of the constitutionality of the policy) turned strict scrutiny review on its head. Then here comes Fisher I, with its unique admissions system, and you now have seven Justices who believe this deference is inappropriate. So Kennedy writes the majority opinion, says that the case should be treated like a regular strict scrutiny case, and the school should be forced to prove why the means chosen are appropriate. That is a very significant change. Just based on oral argument, which is often a terrible predictor of how a case is going to come out, it appears that UT is not capable of carrying their burden under this system. The question, I think, is how broad is the opinion and will this decision be limited to the somewhat unique UT system and the Court will wait for the next set of cases to reach it or will they step out and try and explain how they envision this litigation will run in a post Fisher I world.

And yes, sex is a protected classification in the same way that race is.

@Ohiodad51 - So why do you think UT puts itself in this situation? Could it not achieve the same outcome without explicitly stating race under their holistic review?

IIRC, UT was operating under a pre Gruetter decision which prohibited the consideration of race in admissions. So the legislature came up with the 10% policy. After Gruetter, the school decided to use race as a factor in a holistic process for the remaining members of the class (which was the holding in Gruettwr). It is that policy that spawned this litigation. As to why the school made that decision, frankly @lookingforward or someone else with experience in admissions is probably a better person to ask. I have no idea.

@inspiration12

What proxy for race do you propose UT use in the holistic round? First Gen? Low SES? English not spoken at home?

If it uses those, then UT doesn’t get the higher SES URMs it desires to achieve “diversity within diversity”, as stated in Fisher I.

[url=http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/LCCR-and-Mintz-Fisher-Amicus-Empirical-Scholars.pdf]Here[/url] is the best amicus smackdown of the “mismatch” theory. A bunch of eminent statisticians, social scientists and other scholars (“Empirical Scholars”) get out the howitzer and pulverize the theory to fine dust.

Scalia had no business even bringing a theory so thoroughly discredited.

What they really need to do is to establish an SAT/ACT floor for the students they accept as part of 10% rule and double the weight of race in their holistic admissions portion. Then maybe they will get a student body more to their liking.

@ohiodad51 what do you think of subject matter jurisdiction in Fisher 2? Is this all about a 100 application fee? I read somewhere that sotomayer was going to bring up jurisdiction in a dissent and so to get her to not do that Fisher 1 came out pretty tame. Some of the justices were concerned that a jurisdictional dissent could make the court look like it was making up cases. Do you think it will be a big issue in Fisher 2?

So UT uses race to achieve it’s goal of “diversity within diversity” (i.e. higher SES URM’s)? I don’t know what proxy UT should use to gain their desired outcome - maybe this is the most effective in UT’s eyes. Other universities want diversity, too, but go about it in a less litigious way, I presume. For example, Texas A&M uses outreach in minority communities as a method of increasing diversity at the university. There is approximately 20% hispanic representation at A&M and its an upward trend.

@cardinalfang it sounds like Scalia is violating Daubert which prohibits junk science as evidence. And he was part of the Daubert ruling majority

getting schooled:

is the local San Antonio paper misrepresenting its flagship Uni in the following statement (my bold):

I had assumed that the quotes were from the actual case. Are they not?

http://www.expressnews.com/news/local/article/In-Supreme-Court-case-university-defends-policy-6659320.php

@tiger1307, I think you are talking about standing rather than subject matter jurisdiction. Simply put, standing refers to the right of a particular plaintiff to bring the suit. Subject matter jurisdiction refers to the particular court’s power to hear the case. I know that UT sought remand to the district court to reargue the standing issue. I will confess that the standing issue is not immediately apparent from what I know if the case, and I would be surprised if this decision turned on that point.

@inspiration12, I think you highlight a good point. By necessity, the Supreme Court operates in very broad terms. Lawyers look at cases like this as an evolving trend. It helps sometimes to think of this as people slowly testing various facets of incredibly complex issues. The goal for the Court is often to paint the broad strokes, and then let the “laboratory of democracy” and the Circuit Courts work out the details. If this particular policy is found to be unconstitutional, then the appropriate process is to tinker with it to try and get where they want to go in a different way.

That a scholarly paper has flaws in it doesn’t by default render the thesis invalid. Just because I write a flawed paper to explain the astronomical dynamics of how the sun rises in the east every morning, doesn’t render invalid the fact that the sun rises in the east every morning.

The fact remains that under-prepared students OF ALL RACES typically struggle when thrown in the fray at a fast-paced school w highly prepared students. It’s intellectual dishonesty not to acknowledge that.

** Who Gets to Graduate? **
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/magazine/who-gets-to-graduate.html?referer=&_r=0

This is UT’s own research:

UT has had to expend a lot of resources on programs to keep the under-prepared students from failing.

Hmmm, does that goal really make sense from a policy standpoint? UT Austin’s student SES background distribution is already highly skewed toward the upper half of the income range (only 27% on Pell grants, which go up to about $61,000 income for a family of four (this is very close to the Texas median family income), although the full Pell amount goes up to only about $32,000). It is hard to believe that, even if the URM students have a lower SES background distribution, that lower SES is significantly overrepresented (i.e. significantly more than 50% on Pell grants) within the URM students.

I’ve read some of the briefs in the case, but not all, so maybe this has been answered somewhere, but how does Fisher have standing to bring this suit? UT says she wouldn’t have been admitted even if race were not a factor, because she applied in a competitive year. She ended up going to Louisiana State, which suggests to me that no other schools even close to UT’s caliber admitted her.

To be fair to UT, they obviously have no control with the automatic admit students who get in under the top 10% policy. They do, however, have control as to what major they are assigned to and SAT/ACT scores play a role in that decision. And they certainly do expend resources on retention programs.

So UT uses race to achieve it’s goal of “diversity within diversity” (i.e. higher SES URM’s)?

This is my question. Does it use race for this goal? Do I agree with it if it does? Not really.

@“Cardinal Fang” The simple answer is that if the Court accepts UT’s argument that Fisher would not have been admitted anyway to control standing, then any school with holistic admissions would be able to defeat standing in any case. The super hyper technical answer is that the Court generally finds standing when it wants to.

@ohiodad51 the big elephant in the room is that fisher did not have standing to invoke article 3 jurisdiction. i.e.she was not smart enough to get in under the top 10 per cent rule or any rule in effect regardless of race.

@gmtplus7 a scholarly paper having flaws is fatal to its usage in federal court. That is the Daubert rule in federal courts of which scalia himself was part of the majority opinion