Secret Societies?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Yale University
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<p>Okay friends, this is, I believe, my first post on the Yale board. I am a graduate of Princeton and Harvard and I have refrained from posting here because my knowledge of Yale is primarily secondhand through comments made by friends who attended. However, posterX’s statements almost always invite corrections and I’ve decided to add my own comments since his post above in regard to Princeton’s eating clubs is full of innuendo and mischaracterizations. </p>

<p>In one respect, I agree with posterX. From what I have heard, today, Yale’s secret societies are nothing like the stereotypes that still circulate. Harvard’s final clubs have also changed dramatically. What posterX is not willing to say is that Princeton’s eating clubs are exactly the same in this sense. In other words, they are nothing like the stereotypes from the 1950s. The social atmosphere at all three of these schools has changed significantly.</p>

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<p>Ask any Princeton graduate and you will be told that the above statement is utter nonsense. To begin with, the campus has many opportunities for socializing other than the Street. At the same time, if you do wish to go to the clubs, getting passes to attend parties is extremely easy to do. Even membership is available to anyone who wishes. Half of the clubs are simple “sign-in” clubs where individuals or groups can decide to join without any screening process. A computerized system matches the undergraduates with their choices and tries to assign them to their first choice if possible. The cost of eating clubs is virtually the same as dining hall contracts and for those clubs where the cost is slightly higher, Princeton now provides financial aid to cover the difference. In other words, there are no barriers to entry through admission policies for half of the clubs and no barriers to entry due to cost for any of the clubs. </p>

<p>The remaining clubs have a student-run selection process but it is no more elitist than similar processes at Yale’s secret societies or at Harvard’s final clubs. In fact, the admission rate is far higher, with about half of all students who bicker being offered membership in the club of their choice. The difference between the eating clubs and these social organizations at the other schools is that almost all parties at all of the eating clubs are open to students across campus whether or not they belong to that club. The parties vary in quality but typically they’re all a good deal of fun.</p>

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<p>PosterX seems to enjoy taking swipes at both Harvard and Princeton and I’m afraid that I don’t buy his statements about “just being honest based on [his] extensive experience.” Anyone who spends a moment thinking about it would have to question how an experience so common to nearly all Princeton undergraduates could possibly be “elitist”. In fact, it seems to me that the eating clubs are the exact opposite of ‘elite’. If they are meant to be exclusive and vehicles for social stratification, they are doing a very poor job indeed. In fact, nearly 3/4's of all Princeton juniors and seniors (plus a large percentage of the sophomores during their spring semester) belong to the clubs. Furthermore, students of all classes tend to show up at the open parties (though drinking age limits are observed). It’s difficult to see how a phenomenon so widespread and open to anyone who wishes to participate can be said to be ‘elite’. On the contrary, I would say that it is clear that they are rather 'common'. They're also a lot of fun for most students. The facilities are beautiful and they offer a full range of activities including community service. For those who do not wish to participate as full members, there are also social memberships which are much less expensive and even those juniors and seniors who have no formal connection with the clubs whatsoever often show up at the parties. </p>

<p>So, yes, posterX is correct in saying that the eating clubs are a far more important part of Princeton’s social scene than the secret societies are of Yale’s. The flip side is that they are also far more open than those societies and than Harvard’s final clubs (thus explaining why the entertainment industry takes so little interest in them compared to organizations such as “Skull and Bones” which has frequently appeared in movies). I was not a member of any of them, but I attended plenty of parties and generally enjoyed them. Calling them elitist, however, is a little like calling membership in the YMCA elitist. It just doesn’t make sense. There are far too many members and it’s far too easy to participate for such a label to be justified.</p>

<p>But don’t take my word for it. The best review of Princeton’s eating clubs in comparison with Harvard’s final clubs and Yale’s secret societies comes from a series of articles done by the Yale Daily News whose reporters visited the three campuses and had this to say: “In comparison to Harvard's final clubs or Yale's secret societies, Princeton's eating clubs are in many ways less exclusive. Even the selective bicker clubs have open application; any student can go through the bicker process. Neither final clubs nor secret societies accept applications; students are simply "tapped" for membership, or at Harvard, "punched." While some of the information in these articles is now out of date, it will still give you a far less biased view than what you may otherwise receive.</p>

<p>Yale</a> Daily News - Societies find their secret niche = on Yale’s Secret Societies
Yale</a> Daily News - Taking it to 'The Street' = on Princeton’s Eating Clubs
Yale</a> Daily News - Final clubs provide controversial social outlet = on Harvard’s Final Clubs</p>

<p>Finally, the Princeton admission office has created a page to answer questions about the clubs and to dispel some of the myths (perpetuated by posterX above) regarding them. You’ll find that information here.</p>

<p>Princeton</a> University | Eating Clubs = Princeton’s own description of the clubs</p>

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<p>Well, I think it's probably true that posterx's post overstated the elitist nature of the eating clubs, but maybe you can tell us a bit more about the composition of the membership of the selective eating clubs? To an outside observer, it appears that Princeton's eating club system has a lot in common with the Greek system at many schools: more and less selective clubs with a lot of open parties.
But because the secret societies at Yale are both small and secret (and limited to seniors), there is not the sense that a significant number of students are in socially selective organizations. I think this is a qualitative difference between Yale and Princeton, although it shouldn't be overstated.</p>

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<p>Not being a princeton undergraduate myself, i think it's worthy to note that there are significant differences between the secret societies and what you described about the eating clubs. Societies have no significance for people who aren't in them... nobody feels excluded from society events because they're nearly never open to the public (only under very rare circumstances...) and members never talk about what they do. While there is an element of mystery, i don't think people who aren't in a society feel excluded. There's a big difference between an institution that's completely removed from the public eye and one in which you take your meals (a very significant social setting) and only half of all people bickering are accepted. While yale's societies are by far more exclusive, i suspect that there's a much greater feeling of exclusion at princeton.</p>

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<p>Kwiji, you are a moderate and reasonable poster whose opinions have been appreciated here on the CC boards. Since you seem to be addressing my post above, I’ll respond in kind. </p>

<p>I hope you have a chance to experience the eating clubs at Princeton because I think you’ll find many of your stereotypes undone. (I know this was certainly true for me.) I write this in a spirit of camaraderie to help dispel some myths.</p>

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<p>Sadly, these stereotypes about Princeton persist even though they have little to no basis in fact today. What you suspect is simply not the case. In the past there certainly WAS an awful sense of exclusion experienced by a number of Princeton undergraduates when they were not accepted to clubs. That was at a time when all of the clubs had a bicker process. Those days are long gone. In fact, the final clubs at Harvard and the secret societies at Yale were also very different in the past. In the 50s and 60s they too played a much larger part in the social lives of undergraduates at their respective institutions and there were many who felt excluded because they did not come from wealthy families, practice the ‘right’ religion or hail from the ‘right’ prep school. Today, all of these institutions are very different. Princeton’s eating clubs, for example are all coed, whereas there are still male-only final clubs. The last of Yale’s secret societies didn’t go coed until the early 90s, actually a year or two later than Princeton’s eating clubs did. (I hope I’m correct in believing that all of the secret societies are now coed! Please correct me if I’m wrong.)</p>

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<p>There is a huge difference between the eating clubs and the secret societies. There is no doubt about that. To begin, there is nothing at all 'secret' about the eating clubs. As you point out, the eating clubs are dining facilities where a very large percentage of juniors and seniors eat. It is misleading, however, to imply that many are excluded. Here are the percentages. Somewhere around a quarter of juniors and seniors are independent or decide to continue to eat in the university dining halls. Of the remaining three quarters who want to join a club and take their meals there, fully half of them simply “sign-in” to the non-selective club of their choice. There is no opportunity for exclusion whatsoever. Anyone may belong. </p>

<p>Since seniors have already made their choices, what we are really talking about (in terms of potential disappointment) is approximately a third of the junior class that decides to ‘bicker’, that is, to apply for membership in one of the clubs that is not an open sign-in club. Of those who decide to go this route fully half of them are offered membership. Finally, then, we are down to a little under 20% of the junior class that wanted to join a ‘bicker’ club but was unsuccessful in the first round and, of that group, a very large percentage will enter a second bicker process and try again or simply join one of the sign-in clubs. My point is, that in the end, virtually everyone has found a place where he or she is comfortable and virtually all students who want to join an eating club may do so. </p>

<p>Certainly there will be a very small number who don’t and who feel excluded, but then I suspect there are also some Harvard and Yale seniors who hoped to belong to final clubs or secret societies who end up being disappointed. The Yale Daily News articles certainly suggest this. While it is absolutely the case that the eating clubs have a sad past of exclusivity, that is no longer the reality today and hasn’t been for nearly twenty years. Today, the eating clubs are really just glorified dining facilities with parties. There are no guards at the doors and no locks. If you visit Princeton you should feel free to just wander inside and ask questions. No one will be standing there ready to throw you out!</p>

<p>Again, thank you for being a reasonable and moderate voice within the CC community.</p>

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<p>Harvard's final clubs are still male-only. While some open their doors to females for some parties, many events are by invitation only. The Porcellian does not ever let in non-members.(They have a reputation of being boys from the wealthiest or most connected families, but not the most handsome or athletic, certainly.) There are now separate female final clubs, the Bee and Isis (social clubs) and Pleiades, which is more cultural-event oriented. Each club only punches (elects) about 20 members during sophomore years, so they do not have large memberships. There are also 3 sororities now, (Alpha Kappa Theta, Kappa Kappa Gamma, and Delta Gamma, which recruit in winter of freshman year, and provide many social events, some in conjunction with final clubs. They do not have houses, so students still benefit from the college dorm life.</p>

<p>Princeton eating clubs offer larger membership, spacious venues, many open parties, and the balance and friendships which come with co-ed membership. You can not choose to be considered by Harvard final clubs, you must wait to be "punched". Out of around 100 punchees, only about 20 are selected.</p>

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<p>"Finally, then, we are down to a little under 20% of the junior class that wanted to join a ‘bicker’ club but was unsuccessful in the first round...." </p>

<p>Well, that's still pretty many, honestly. It seems to me that this would still have a bigger impact than exclusion from a secret society at Yale. I can tell you that as far back as the late '70s, the secret societies had virtually no impact on broader campus life. The typical student neither know, nor cared, who was in any of them. It still appears to me that Princeton has a system that is functionally the same as the Greek system at many colleges, and Yale doesn't have this. That is a qualitative differrence between the two.</p>

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<p>Hunt, I apologize for failing to respond to your earlier question and will try to answer that one as well as this newest one. I really don’t want to hijack this thread with a discussion of Princeton. I simply wanted to respond to the mischaracterizations to which I’ve referred above.</p>

<p>In regard to your last post, it’s a little unfair to quote from my earlier post while leaving off the end of the sentence. Here is the full sentence:</p>

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<p>In fact, of that 20% (constituting about 240 students) virtually all end up in some club, though it might not be the one that was their first choice. At the end of the process, there are almost always places left over at the sign-in clubs virtually ensuring that anyone who wants to belong to some club, may. So is anyone really left out in the cold? No. As long as there are still some sign-in club spaces available at the end of the process, it’s obvious that anyone who wanted to join to a club, could have. </p>

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<p>I’m not certain here whether you are suggesting that Yale doesn’t have a Greek system. You must know that it does. In fact, there was a highly publicized incident just recently in which a Yale fraternity initiation involved a rather insulting act in front of the Yale Women’s Center. It was a front page story in the Yale Daily News and continues to have repercussions. </p>

<p>Princeton also has a Greek system despite the fact that fraternities and sororities are not officially recognized by the University. </p>

<p>I would say that there is very little similarity between the eating clubs and the Greek system. To begin, since the eating clubs are all coed, the atmosphere is entirely different from the male-only fraternities and female-only sororities in which the atmosphere is dominated by their single-sex membership. Also, the raison d’etre of fraternities and sororities is to party and network for mutual support. The raison d’etre of eating clubs is first to ‘eat’ and then to ‘party’. </p>

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<p>All of the eating clubs have socially-mixed memberships though there is some self-selection. The interesting thing is that it changes over time. If large groups of friends all decide to join a single club, they can have a tremendous impact on the nature of the membership for that year. Over time some clubs have been more or less artsy, athletic, engineering/science oriented, alternative, etc. </p>

<p>I suspect, however, that you are actually curious as to whether some of the clubs are highly socially-selective (perhaps like Skull & Bones at Yale or Porcellian at Harvard). The only club that might fall into that category is Ivy which has tended to have a larger percentage of eastern blue bloods, though I understand that it too has changed somewhat and is no longer even the most selective club.</p>

<p>There is a tremendous amount of enduring but outdated mythology associated with the eating clubs. In fact, with the rise of the full four-year college system at Princeton, it’s not entirely clear what will happen with them. My best guess is that, eventually, nearly all the clubs will become open sign-in clubs. A number of them now have relationships with the undergraduate colleges, allowing juniors and seniors to eat in both places. We’ll see.</p>

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<p>"In fact, of that 20% (constituting about 240 students) virtually all end up in some club, though it might not be the one that was their first choice. At the end of the process, there are almost always places left over at the sign-in clubs virtually ensuring that anyone who wants to belong to some club, may. So is anyone really left out in the cold? No. As long as there are still some sign-in club spaces available at the end of the process, it’s obvious that anyone who wanted to join to a club, could have. "</p>

<p>Yes, but you keep glossing over the fact that there are selective clubs, and that a substantial portion of the student body attempts to gain membership in one of these but fails to do so.
Also, I don't think the Greeks at Yale are big enough to really be called a "system," although they have grown somewhat in recent years.
I think it's great that the eating clubs have gone coed and are more egalitarian than they used to be--but they still aren't as egalitarian as the residential college system at Yale. Yale really has nothing that is the analogue of "bicker" or "rush" in terms of how many people are involved.</p>

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<p>One society that was missing is Spade and Grave. It was one of the originial three or four. It fell out of action for awhile but it is up a running quite well. It has an apartment in New Haven, alumni backing , a trust fund, and some quite well known alumni.</p>

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<p>I'm still kind of unsure of why these clubs were created? What purpose do the Secret Societies play if they are unseen (other than to be able to call yourself a member)?</p>

<p>And just curious, is there any rivalry between the Societies?</p>

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<p>PtonGrad... i do appreciate that you're not flaming anyone/any college, but you're trying a little too hard to prove that princeton isn't elitist.</p>

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<p>Kwiji, I certainly didn’t mean to appear to be “trying too hard.” (I tend to be detail oriented and sometimes longwinded!) </p>

<p>The problem is that this charge of “elitism” is simply not true in the eyes of the vast majority of current Princeton students but is endlessly repeated on these boards as though it is a fact. (Obviously you know that I don’t put you in the category of abusive posters but there are others who certainly are guilty.) </p>

<p>I think that Yale, Harvard and some other schools suffer from some of this as well. The so frequently repeated over-the-top negative characterizations of the conditions in New Haven rankle my Yale friends just as the characterizations of Harvard undergraduates as arrogant know-it-alls irk my Harvard friends. These false stereotypes should be called for what they are and not allowed to stand. Still, your point is well-taken. I’ve said enough.</p>