Seeking advice from people currently in or graduated from Law School

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Hi everyone! I have applied to 15 colleges, got 5 letters back so far and have been accepted to all five. These include University of Alabama, University of Kentucky, University of Illinois, Richmond University in London, and John Cabot University in Rome.</p>

<p>So basically, I have been traveling the world since before I could walk, and have always had a huge interest in International Affairs.</p>

<p>I plan on going to college for International Business double majored with possibly Marketing or Information Systems. I want to go to law school after getting my Bachelor's Degree and study both American and European law, specifically International Business Law.</p>

<p>Many of the law firms websites I looked at had associates who went to college abroad, not in the United States.</p>

<p>After college and law school is all said and done I would like to be living in Europe (probably the UK) and doing law there.
Besides English I speak French, Italian, median level of Spanish, and am currently learning German and Mandarin Chinese.</p>

<p>THEREFORE, I am wondering whether it would be beneficial for me to do my Bachelor's abroad versus in the United States?</p>

<p>And regardless if I get my Bachelor's in the U.S. or Europe, I definitely plan on attending law school abroad. </p>

<p>Someone on another post suggested I look into an LLM? </p>

<p>Overall I am just extremely confused and clueless as to what is the right path for me to successfully get to law school and eventually practice law in Europe as an American. I do not want to work from a U.S. office for Europe, but actually physically work and live there.</p>

<p>ANY information would be helpful!</p>

2

<p>First, take a really deep breath. You are seventeen or eighteen years old and really should <em>not</em> be planning out the rest of your life now. (You’ll change more in the next four years than you have in the last ten.) </p>

<p>Second, at least for American law school admissions, it does not matter where you did your undergrad or what you majored in; what matters is your GPA and LSAT.</p>

<p>My understanding is that international law jobs are extremely hard to get; I have no idea what that is like abroad. However, what you need to do is to look into the requirements of being an attorney in the country in which you want to live. Many times, law is an undergraduate, not a graduate, course of study. </p>

<p>Unlike science, medicine, or liberal arts, you really do need to know the law in the jurisdiction in which you want to practice; the law varies so much by jurisdiction that it’s useless (usually) to get an American law degree and then take that over to Europe or Asia. </p>

<p>Look into a couple of firms that do the type of work that you want to do and then look at the bios of the attorneys who work there. That will give you a far better idea of what you should be doing than anything we can tell you here, as American educated attorneys who are working in America on American legal issues.</p>

3

<p>Okay. I’m a bit confused by your post.</p>

<p>I’m going to assume that you are an American citizen and do not have dual citizenship. I’m also going to assume that you want to practice as an American attorney but do it while living in Europe. </p>

<p>If that’s the case…there is NO reason for you to go to Europe for undergrad. I don’t think going to the two AMERICAN colleges in Europe you list will hurt you, but I don’t think it will help you either. If you were my own kid, I’d suggest your in-state public flagship if that’s on your list and all your options are on your list.</p>

<p>Go to college. Do as well academically as you can. You might want to learn to speak another European language fluently if you can.Do some ECs–not necessarily ones you think will help you get into law school. Have some fun.</p>

<p>When the time comes, go to an American law school. Study hard for the LSAT before you take it. </p>

<p>Then during law school, interview at US law firms which have European offices. Some of these firm see working in Europe as a plum assignment, so they may require you to work in the US office for about 2 years before you can apply for a transfer to a European office. The type of law you do will affect this. Most US firms’ European practices are focused on corporate or transactional law (deals). Some also do some international arbitration work, but I think it’s fair to say it’s harder for a litigation associate to get a European assignment. From what I know–which is anecdotal, not the result of any scientific survey–real estate and trusts & estates lawyers don’t usually get assigned to Europe.</p>

<p>There are some law schools, e.g., Harvard, which offer joint programs in which you get an American JD and British LLB. You might want to check those out. I suspect firms will hire more people from these programs in the future for European offices.</p>

<p>For a variety of reasons, I would NOT suggest going to law school abroad UNLESS you hold dual citizenship or know you can qualify for it. </p>

<p>Remember that from what you are saying you plan to emigrate to Europe. You will need to qualify to live in Europe. Getting a European law degree does not in and of itself qualify you to stay in Europe, even if you have a law degree from a particular European nation. This is not legal advice–I’m not particularly knowledgeable about European law–but my understanding is that it is very hard to get permission to live in a EU country if you are performing a job that can be performed by a European citizen. This means that as an American lawyer practicing US laws, you’re in a better position to be hired than if you are, e.g, an American citizen trying to practice Geman law. Not only do all the German attorneys get preference over you, every citizen of ANY EU nation gets preference over you. </p>

<p>Remember too that in many European countries, law degrees are undergrad degrees. Some UK universities specifically state that they do not accept US citizens for LLB programs, only for LLMs. You need an American JD before you can enroll in those programs. Other UK law schools, including Oxbridge the last I checked, do accept US citizens. Getting a British LLB doesn’t qualify you to practice in EITHER the UK or the US. The Brits do a “conversion course” and I think it would be very hard for a US citizen to be accepted and even harder for one to get hired–again absent dual citizenship in a EU nation.</p>

4

<p>My time to edit has expired, but I do want to add that I am NOT an expert and don’t purport to be.</p>

<p>I just want to make sure you know that going to law school in a foreign country, whether to get an undergrad or graduate degree, does NOT automatically mean that the immigration authorities will let you stay in the country and get a job when you complete your course.</p>

<p>You need to check out the requirements to be admitted to practice in a nation, particularly whether bar membership is restricted to citizens, before you start applying to law schools abroad.</p>

<p>If you want to practice US law in England, the easiest path is to be hired by an American law firm for its London office. It will sponsor you for immigration. If the application is accepted, you will get a work permit. If for any reason, you are terminated…not at all unusual at law firms, which often let associates go after a few years…you have to leave the UK. You can apply to stay in a process which is roughly analogous to getting a US green card–but there is no guarantee you’ll succeed.</p>

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<p>Again, I’m not an expert, but here are some links to a couple of the joint degree programs.</p>

<p>[Harvard</a> Law School and University of Cambridge J.D./LL.M. Joint Degree Program](<a href=“http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/degrees/special-programs/study-abroad/joint-degree-program.html]Harvard”>http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/degrees/special-programs/study-abroad/joint-degree-program.html) And I note I was wrong–you get a Cambridge LLM, not LLB.</p>

<p>Columbia has programs with law schools in several different nations [Foreign</a> Dual Degree Programs | International Programs | Columbia Law School](<a href=“http://web.law.columbia.edu/international-programs/study-abroad-programs/foreign-dual-degree-programs]Foreign”>http://web.law.columbia.edu/international-programs/study-abroad-programs/foreign-dual-degree-programs)</p>

<p>I’m sure there are others, but this will give you a start.</p>

6

<p>I also wanted to practice “international law” and I worked for a UK-based firm for a while, as well as interned in 2 European firms. </p>

<p>If you practice in Europe as an American, since you can practice law of the jurisdiction only where you’re admitted to practice, if you have a US law degree, you will be practicing US law, most likely with a US firm’s foreign office. Those jobs are few and far between, except in London. Or you could end up working for a European firm, likely at much lower pay than a US firm would pay (unless you work for the US division of a UK firm). You will be doing the same work as Americans in the US, but for deals with a European client or business, and your hours will be crazier than US offices’ hours because of the time differences. Nothing exotic about it. </p>

<p>If you want “international”, especially involving a job where you speak languages other than English, do another career. Seriously.</p>

7

<p>I will be getting a European law degree, not American. I will also be getting an LLM. And London is where I would be interested in working. I am mostly interested in working for law in relation to politics (the EU, parliament, etc.) which I do know can be difficult jobs to get. I don’t necessarily want a job where speaking other languages are involved, although I could do that if necessary. I appreciate the advice, but I can’t see myself doing anything aside from law and politics because that’s really my only interest.</p>

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<p>If you’re getting a European law degree, then you should have plenty of jobs available for you around the EU.</p>

<p>Why get an LLM? </p>

<p>Please note that if you decide to return to work in the US, you can get admitted in NY only if you also then get a US LLM. I don’t know how the bar admittance rules work in other states; it could be difficult.</p>

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<p>I want to get an LLM to expand my jurisdiction and have more globalization. I plan on doing a program at a law school in England where I do both U.S. and EU law. I know one law school I looked at has a program where you do 2 years there and a third at Colombia University which gets you both the U.S. and EU law degree. If I were to end up working in the U.S. I would most likely do it in Chicago or New York, and I know there bar admittance rates just require you to be in good standing in the country you were in, and have 1,000 hours practicing law within the past 5-7 years. I would just like to get both a EU law degree, and U.S. if possible so I have that to fall back on.</p>

10

<p>Most states require you have a law degree from an ABA accredited law school. There are other ways to qualify for the bar, but that is the most common and the ABA doesn’t accredit foreign schools.</p>

<p>But you already have it all figured out.</p>

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<p>I don’t know if that last line was intended to be sarcastic…but I don’t have it all figured out. I am just trying to figure out a way that I can work as a lawyer in Europe in the future, not in the U.S. That is my goal. I would prefer to have a degree where I can be accredited both in the U.S. and the U.K. and I am looking for suggestions to do so. I just don’t want to work from a U.S. office, I want to be located in Europe.</p>

12

<p>Rachel,</p>

<p>I made a good faith effort to answer your question. Read my response–I have trouble believing you’ve read it. </p>

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<p>I know nothing about Illinois, but you have to take and pass the bar exam in New York…and it’s extremely unlikely you’ll be able to do that with a British law degree only. </p>

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<p>Again, do you have dual citizenship? If you don’t, you’re not even eligible for most of those jobs. </p>

<p>And if that’s what you want to do, then why are you planning to study “international business law?”</p>

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<p>Not true…getting a European law degree does not in and of itself enable you to emigrate to a foreign country.</p>

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<p>"Not true…getting a European law degree does not in and of itself enable you to emigrate to a foreign country. "</p>

<p>Having a European law degree will open doors to law firms around Europe. What I posted is true. It does not grant automatic citizenship or the like to someone, but it will increase employer interest.</p>

<p>When I worked in Brussels and Paris, there were some Americans working there for local firms; they had mostly gotten European LLMs or full law degrees.</p>

<p>I have no idea why any American would want to work for a local European firm on a full-time, permanent basis, unless jobs just aren’t available for the person at the same level in the US. European firms pay much, much less to associates than the same caliber US firm does.</p>

15

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<p>Not entirely true. While not the UK, grads from Canadian law schools are eligible to write the Bar in NY and MA. Many do so every year and some move on to other states as well.</p>

<p>Rachel, keep in mind that many EU countries do not follow Common Law. This should inform where you attend law school and what type of program you study, in addition to the immigration issues mentioned earlier in the thread. In most countries, including the UK (where it is increasingly difficult to obtain the ability to work), you cannot just decide to move there and get a job.</p>

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<p>City, I’m no expert, but my understanding was that many of the people who do this have other ways around the immigration question–they are admitted to practice in the US and this credential is what enables an employer to sponsor them; they are married to EU citizens; they have dual citizenship in the US and a EU country. (I’m an Irish-American and some grandchildren of Irish immigrants get Irish citizenship so they can have EU passports and work in the UK or France.) </p>

<p>Again, maybe you’re right and it’s easier to do than I think it is. </p>

<p>But one of the problems is that the OP will be trying for the job at least 6 years down the road and all bets are off as to what the UK’s immigration laws will look like at that point.</p>

<p>For general info, the OP should see <a href=“http://www.migrationexpert.co.uk/work_visa/[/url]”>http://www.migrationexpert.co.uk/work_visa/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Hi everyone, again thanks for the responses. City, I am curious, why did you work in Brussels and Paris, and how did you land jobs there? I am looking to work in Europe full time purely for the fact that I have a stronger interest in the government system, and I have spent a lot of time there my entire life. I also have grandparents who live in Europe. It is not about the level of pay, rather than simply the interest I have there. I am just finding it difficult to do so. My ultimate goal is to move out of the U.S. and work in Europe, which of course may sound odd to some, but I am just looking for all options of doing so.</p>

<p>Thanks :)</p>

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<p>Jonri, I saw your responses. Thank you very much. Helpful information. I am just thinking if I do my undergrad and law school there I would have time to apply for citizenship. But, like you said, who knows what the immigration laws will be like in the UK at this time. I am also curious, how did you land a job at a UK based firm? Was it through a U.S. office?</p>

<p>Alwaysamom, I am not interested in the common law, I take a strong interest in European law and that is my driving force behind this goal of mine. I was thinking if I went there for my undergrad I would have time to obtain citizenship? My parents have a few friends who obtained citizenship in similar ways.</p>

<p>I’m curious,
does anyone know of law schools in the U.S. that allow students to do a dual study of both English law and American law? Because I know at Kings College in London they have a program of English law + American law which is the first 2 years at Kings College studying English law, and the last 2 at Colombia University studying American law.
I have yet to find another program like this one. This program is basically exactly what I am looking for, but I am searching to see if more than one school offers it, because I am not exactly sure just how difficult it is to get accepted into this program. I have contacted the school itself but have yet to hear back.</p>

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<p>I’m confused then. According to the rest of that post, you’re looking to study English and American law, both of which are Common Law. Many, if not most, European countries follow the Civil Code.</p>

<p>As for gaining citizenship, that clearly will vary country to country. Generally speaking, most countries do not allow students studying in the country to apply for citizenship. There are likely language requirements for most European countries. Wait times vary, too, but France, for example, takes around 14 years to become a naturalized citizen. In Holland, you must have lived there for at least five years, worked, and be able to speak, read, and write the language. They also require that you renounce your current citizenship. Just a couple of examples. Lots to think about and to research.</p>

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<p>I worked in Brussels and Paris because I had spent a lot of time studying abroad in French-speaking countries and wanted to make that part of my life. </p>

<p>I looked up the firm where I worked in Brussels and it has a few Americans working there still. All but one got an LLM in Europe (either the UK or Belgium). </p>

<p>I worked for a small local firm in Paris that I would not recommend.</p>