Seeking advice regarding math sequence for average math kid

Parents Forum
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<p>I would welcome suggestions/advice for my high school junior.</p>

<p>He has formerly been diagnosed with a math disability (about 5 years ago) and on that particular achievement test (I think it's called the WIAT), he got 98%ile in math reasoning and 14th%ile in math calculation.</p>

<p>Fast forward to today-</p>

<p>He is doing pretty well in math but isn't accelerated. He is currently finishing Algebra II through Art of Problem Solving online. (We homeschool)</p>

<p>He took the SAT I last spring as a sophomore and got a 690 in math. He got all the geo. questions right and missed three Alg. questions and skipped one, but this was before he'd taken Algebra II. I <em>think</em> he can score in the high 700s as he's doing well in his AoPS class (with help from a weekly tutor in addition to the class).</p>

<p>My plan had been to just jump him over to the community college math sequence in the spring since he's begun taking CC classes this fall. He's exploring a lot of different majors/fields including game design, music, architecture, engineering, and even fashion. He is exceedingly creative and is looking for a major that will complement his creativity.</p>

<p>This fall, he's taking Architectural Drafting and Introduction to Engineering.</p>

<p>My question and quandary:</p>

<p>Due to some health issues, his coursework hasn't progressed like typical "top" students, particularly in math. Yet, it's possible that he might be applying to a few selective schools (though almost assuredly not schools with less than 10% admit rate) if his future test scores and CC grades are very strong.</p>

<p>If he stays the course he's on now, he will do trig in the spring, pre-calc. in the fall and calc I in spring of his senior year.</p>

<p>If he really is interested in engineering as a major, wouldn't that be a pretty weak high school program? Or is calc I enough, even for selective LACs. He wouldn't apply to schools like Caltech, MIT, etc., for sure.</p>

<p>I am considering having him take an accelerated 8 week trig course at the local CC this fall which begins after his AoPS class ends. It would be difficult for him for the sole reason that he would have to get up early (for him, anything before 11 am is early; this is one of his health issues-he struggles with very low energy) four days a week (probably would get up at 8:45 am or even 9 am) for those 8 weeks. I think the work would be fairly easy after his AoPS class and having class every day would be better for him than self-study as he is simply unmotivated to study on his own but learns very well when taught or tutored.</p>

<p>Is it worth the 8 weeks of hardship on him to be able to finish high school with Calc II (and also then be able to take the Calc BC exam and be able to take Mechanics at the CC)? </p>

<p>Or should I just let him stay the course?</p>

<p>The other option would be for him to test out of trig by taking a challenge exam. My oldest son, an MIT sophomore, said trig is easy to learn and can be learned quickly but this son is not like my MIT son, and I worry that just trying to test out of it would leave gaps. I could probably get a tutor to work with him (I've got lots of free resources to draw from, thankfully), but would that be best for this son?</p>

<p>Sorry this is so long! But this is really something I am wrestling with. My son would probably be ok to give it a go, but of course would prefer not to have to get up early for 8 weeks.</p>

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<p>I am not sure with your particular case, but schools generally view applicants in light of what is available to them. For instance, my school only offers math up to Calc I, in dual enrollment with the local community college. I only took math through Calc I. I was accepted into many selective schools, including MIT. </p>

<p>However, engineering is very math intensive. If possible, I would recommend going through as much math as you could, without putting a strain on health or anything like that, of course. At my school, most engineers must complete the calculus sequence, along with linear algebra and differential equations. But with regard to your initial question, schools view applicants in light of their backgrounds. It is very possible to get into top colleges with only a Calc I on your record.</p>

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<p>93tiger16,</p>

<p>I appreciate your feedback very much. That’s something to think about. My oldest son was very advanced in math because that was his thing and he had no health problems hindering his progress. He finished Dif. Equations by mid-sophomore year in high school and started with upper division classes at MIT.</p>

<p>For this son, after years of math struggle, he’s coming into his own and I could see him being able to do the math required of an engineering degree. It’s hard to compare him to my oldest son since they’re so different. Hopefully schools will understand that this son is doing well in the face of adversity.</p>

<p>PS. Did you get all 800s on your math scores? (SAT I math and SAT II math II) Just curious.</p>

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<p>Schools will definitely take that into account. The top schools make every effort to view every applicant in the best light possible - remember, they’re looking for reasons to admit the applicant, not deny him. </p>

<p>I did not get all 800s on my SAT math. In fact, I got a 740 on SAT math and I believe a 760 on the Math II subject test. I retook the math II and got a 790 - but just let me insert a disclaimer here. I retook it only because I found it pointless to wake up early and go to a test center just to take one subject test (it was my third one), so I signed up for two. A 760 is still a very good score.</p>

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<p>What does your son say? In my opinion, what he wants to do should hold some sway here. </p>

<p>For most programs, Calc I is probably enough. In our school district, that is an accelerated track, above what the state expects. Many other kids are accelerated beyond that, but Calc I is fine and plenty sufficient to start an engineering program (and perhaps repeat Calc, but that’s a separate decision). You describe him as an average math kid, but that would still put him above the norm.</p>

<p>Another thing to consider is that AOPS classes are in the evenings (well, late afternoon in California), and maybe he’s partially doing well in the class because it fits with his natural body clock? You know your son best and what he’s capable of, but I would hesitate to push a kid who is just coming into his own mathematically too far too fast if he weren’t an eager and willing participant.</p>

<p>Instead, I would sit down with him and if this is something he really is eager to do, great. If not, I’d stay with the current course.</p>

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<p>The proposed sequence is half a year ahead of the normal sequence in US high school math. The general expectation is that math, physics, and engineering students are ready for calculus as they enter college as frosh; it is not required that they have had calculus while in high school (although a decent percentage have). Only a few elite schools like Caltech and Harvey Mudd assume calculus in high school (their “frosh calculus” courses are more like real analysis).</p>

<p>Indeed, if he completes college calculus 1 in spring of senior year in high school, he will go on to calculus 2 in his first semester in college, just like numerous other engineering students who finish high school with AP calculus AB and do well on the AP test.</p>

<p>Really, it is not essential that he try to accelerate math ahead of his current track, although if he really wants to, then it is perfectly fine to let him do so. But the way he is going now, he is already ahead, not behind, so continuing on the current sequence should be fine.</p>

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<p>Here is the sample 8-semester course schedule for a mechanical engineering student at Berkeley, coming in with no AP, IB, or college credit:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.me.berkeley.edu/StudentAffairs/CurrentStudents/Undergraduate/CurriculumFlowchart.pdf[/url]”>http://www.me.berkeley.edu/StudentAffairs/CurrentStudents/Undergraduate/CurriculumFlowchart.pdf&lt;/a&gt; (the electives include both humanities and social studies breadth electives and various categories of technical electives)
<a href=“http://coe.berkeley.edu/students/current-undergraduates/curriculum-degree-checks/2011-2014%20ME%20worksheet.pdf[/url]”>http://coe.berkeley.edu/students/current-undergraduates/curriculum-degree-checks/2011-2014%20ME%20worksheet.pdf&lt;/a&gt; (lists all of the requirements)</p>

<p>Note that the math courses start at Math 1A (calculus 1) and Math 1B (calculus 2) in the first two semesters in the flowchart. Of course, students entering with college credit for calculus 1 (see [Welcome</a> to ASSIST](<a href=“http://www.assist.org%5DWelcome”>http://www.assist.org) for articulation to Berkeley Math 1A) would start with Math 1B.</p>

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<p>This is very helpful, ucb. My view is skewed from my older son, no doubt. (And not from me, since in my day, I only took algebra and geometry and that was it!)</p>

<p>Pie, he said he is willing to try it, though he realizes the hardest part would be getting up and for 8 weeks seems pretty darn long. </p>

<p>After AoPS, I think CC trig will be fairly easy for him, but yes, that is not his current natural rhythm to be up at 8:30 am. I think we could do it if he was able to nap most days after class, but at least two days out of the four, he could not do that and Thursdays, he would be going from 9:30 am (with some breaks) until 8 pm when his architecture class is out. </p>

<p>We have tried many things to boost his energy-been to the doctor many times but short of stimulants, which he doesn’t want to take, we haven’t been terribly successful yet.</p>

<p>I’ll give this some more thought. He didn’t register early for the class and is on the waitlist, so it might not even become available for him. He did contact one very selective school (about 18% admit rate) and explained the situation and they seemed ok with it. They only require that students have completed Calc I.</p>

<p>He does want to take physics but he would have to take general physics (non-calc based) rather than mechanics if he only completes Calc I; that was one other reason I thought Calc II would be good, but I guess taking two semesters of general physics, even if they aren’t transferable (I think they’re only for pre-med, at the level of Physics B AP), it would be good for him to take both semesters next year, particularly since second semester has some topics he might like. He initially seemed interested in electrical engineering but honestly, who knows with his varied interests what he’ll end up studying.</p>

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<p>Non-calculus-based physics in college is typically for biology majors and pre-meds (maybe also architecture majors); AP physics B (or its coming replacement AP physics 1 and 2) is supposed to emulate this course. Material wise, if he has not had high school level physics yet, such a course may be roughly equivalent in difficulty to an honors high school physics course (some high schools use the AP physics B syllabus as their honors physics course). Calculus-based physics courses for physics and engineering majors in college (in the Berkeley case, Physics 7A and 7B in the above flowchart and checklist) often recommend high school physics as a prerequisite, so taking the non-calculus-based physics course may still be worthwhile as a substitute for high school physics.</p>

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<p>I think you’re getting excellent advice here. I just want to add one more 2cents. It seems to me your son has a fantastic opportunity – he is getting to take cc courses and explore the different paths he may want to travel. Many people don’t get that opportunity until they actually set foot on college campuses. Their coursework is so proscribed by their school environment that the opportunity to explore and “try” is really limited. </p>

<p>I thought I wanted engineering because I loved math, physics and chem, but I really had no idea what engineering was. I do not have the right personality for engineering, so it wasn’t until I was a sophomore in college (no longer engineering) that I got to see what else was “out there.”</p>

<p>You guys will figure out what’s best, but I want to commend you for getting him this opportunity. I think that if this math class were to be so dominant of his time that he couldn’t enjoy the other courses he’s taking that that would be a shame. He really will be in a position to do anything he wants with Calc I.</p>

<p>Good luck! It sounds like you both are being very thoughtful.</p>

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<p>If you we’re still wondering about the test, I think it was called the IOWA</p>

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<p>Sbjdorlo, I faced similar though perhaps not as severe issues with my D. D1 was an academic star, and D2 also quite smart faced a seemingly continuous downward spiral in her health starting from a serious athletic injury junior year and the resulting academic stress that entailed from trying to keep up in a high paced HS while barely able to move her neck for months. The stress led to numerous other health issues and she was always ill, anxious and depressed. Her immune system was just not cooperating and she had great difficulty getting out of this cycle. She finally came out of it at the end of HS and seems to be herself again. Getting her away from her pediatrician and having her see an adult doctor as soon as she turned 18 helped a lot too. </p>

<p>D2 carefully chose a school that she hopes won’t be quite as stressful as the most competitive colleges that she could have gotten into, and she was accepted to her first choice ED. </p>

<p>I wonder if you are being biased by your older son’s achievement and trying to get your younger son to get on a similar fast track or face catastrophe. </p>

<p>I don’t think your younger son needs this kind of acceleration. Passing the BC Calculus exam is quite rare among US HS grads. While it’s valuable in gaining admissions to prestigious colleges, I wonder if a student facing the kind of issues that your son faces would fare well in an overly competitive college anyway. That sounds more like a recipe for catastrophe than having him work at a more comfortable pace and perhaps going to a college with a more moderate curriculum. </p>

<p>Consider the following 3 colleges at progressively easier levels (WPI, RIT and Wentworth, WPI being the hardest) and look at the pace of the math sequences and the curriculum that they offer for engineering students. Somewhere in that spectrum may be an golden opportunity for your son to shine at a pace where he’s comfortable, self-confident and happy without having to compete with his older brother. </p>

<p>Those are just examples of a spectrum of schools with varying degrees of difficulties available to students interested in STEM careers. There are a lot more. </p>

<p>Because math is cumulative, I think it’s more important to learn the topics well than to accelerate to make up ground to get to BC Calc. </p>

<p>I would focus on getting his health in a good place as the most important thing. There is really no substitute for that. I would focus on diet, exercise, and have him thoroughly checked out medically. I would also look into seeing a Naturopathic Physician, which is a light-handed branch of complementary medicine that focuses more on health and wellness than treating illness to see if there might be some approach toward bringing your son into a better state of health. My family has had good success with this approach though YMMV.</p>

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<p>I think he’ll be fine there are plenty of high schools that only offer Calc AB. If he’s really worried, once he knows where he is attending, he could take the second semester over the summer before he starts college, but I doubt it’s necessary.</p>

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<p>I’ll chime in with the idea that the best way to promote his learning is to take care of his health. It may hurt him more to have him take an early moring class and perform poorly because he feels poorly than to not take it at all.
It seems you have worked out a way for him to learn at his own pace and stay rested. He seems to be doing very well in this setting. In fact, his math is above average.
Math calculation difficulty is easily bipassed by using a calculator, but what is the issue that is causing it? Is it working memory- keeping numbers in his memory long enough to calculate? Does this take so much of his energy that he just fatigues? By home schooling him, you are providing many of the “accomodations” that kids in traditional schools need- a quiet place to study, extended time on assignments and so on. Will he need these in college? If so, then this will need to be documented.
In college, he will likely need similar supports. Will he get enough rest if he lives in a dorm? How is his health and energy on cafeteria and dorm food? Will he get tutoring? He’s obviously intelligent and capable of the academics in college, but the leap from your support to no accomodations in a college setting could be huge. He will also need some sort of priority registration in order to not be placed into early morning classes, and a schedule that will allow him to rest. Since, as you said, his high school education has been modified, it’s likely that college, and even employment may be as well. Fortunatly with the ability to work from home online and some jobs that are flexible, he should be able to find work that suits his needs, and careers like drafting, music, fashion, computer game design can fit this.
Kids with LD are prone to low self esteem, so success at what he does is important. As a mom, I’d want him as well rested as possible, yet you still want him to have the academic challenge and rigor that fits him. As for college, I’d consider letting him live at home and attend CC or a local college for the first year or two- to get used to the type of lecture classes he will have in college, and still get the home cooked food and good rest, or possibly a single room at a smaller school where he can rest when he needs to, get more personal attention, and possibly a reduced class load. He’s talented and creative, just like his brother, but he’s a different person, and that different route is OK too.
It seems like what you are doing is working very well for him and he is thriving, and that’s one way to know to continue doing it.</p>

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<p>I think going through Calc I is fine. My DS took Calc AB and he is while not at a selective LAC he is at Georgia tech which is a good engineering school. A lot kids that got accepted there only went through Calc AB. I don’t believe schools will reject your son because he didn’t take Calc BC.</p>

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<p>At other state universities, below GT, he might actually get in to engineering w/out Calc - with his SAT I score. The fact that he has CC credits will be looked at very favorably. So, no specific advise here, but do not push him too hard out of your own fear that he won’t have good opportunities.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for the wonderful and thoughtful advice, and thank you for being supportive of our homeschooling efforts. There were times during the past three years that I desperately wanted to put him in school (his depression and teenage-like behavior made 8th grade miserable and I forced him to attend a co-op which basically turned his life around for the better and he has a lot of friends there now), but homeschooling has been really helpful for the flexibility…yet not helpful because he is not self-motivated and would do better with more structure.</p>

<p>Thus, this year, I outsourced all his classes. (He’ll be taking a Coursera class, a class at the co-op, and will do writing with Write Guide online; in the spring, if we stay the course, he’ll do Russian and trig at the CC) I think it will work ok. He seems to be very motivated so far in his classes. We are definitely trying to get all the high school requirements checked off while allowing him to pursue his interests.</p>

<p>Yes, he is intelligent like his brother but in a totally different way and all the challenges to his health have definitely put him on another course. We unschooled for 2-3 years, which means we basically did no structured math or English as we tried to get his health under control.</p>

<p>To see him now, doing so well, is really amazing. And yes, he does have low self esteem (he thought his 2090 with a 76 multiple choice on the writing was a bad SAT score), but he’s been in counseling for a while and it’s been very helpful.</p>

<p>Certainly, he understands that the best thing might be to do community college and then transfer. That is on the table. I am not sure he could handle college away from home. Our two local options aren’t ideal, UCSD and SDSU, because of their size and indifference to individual students, but that is the reality.</p>

<p>Cost is probably too much of a driving force for me, I confess. My oldest is well taken care of with lots of need-based aid and outside scholarship and I’m sure he’ll be able to work during the summer and pay for his last two years’ modest fees. (His costs last year were under 3K; this year, they are just a little over 3K)</p>

<p>So, in looking at schools outside our region, cost becomes <em>the</em> major driving force and most schools are simply out of our reach, end of story, without significant need-based and/or merit aid.</p>

<p>Re. what’s causing the math disability-probably working memory. He tests 99.9%+ in verbal language/oral language but both his processing speed (done pre-diabetes but still slow) and working memory were pretty darn low. I know he couldn’t rattle off his multiplication tables quickly (or at all?) but boy, his speed has gotten better just doing AoPS math, and he’s conceptually so right on, so I think there’s probably great progress. I guess getting a 690 on SAT math without having taken Algebra II appears good to most in the outside world.</p>

<p>He does have accommodations at the CC and I will encourage him to seek them at his four year university, as well.</p>

<p>Sorry (again!)to ramble but I definitely see that it’s ok not to push him to take trig and to just go with our original plan. That way, he has some flex, as well, and can take game design, physics, and maybe one other class (he’s really wanted to take a fashion class but it hasn’t fit in the schedule) before he’s done with high school.</p>

<p>I like the idea of a seeking alternative medicinal help but right now, financially, we are not in a position to do so, unfortunately.</p>

<p>Thanks again!!!</p>

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<p>

That’s the problem with having a high achieving older sibling. My younger son thought his scores were soso, until he discovered they were higher than those of any of his friends! (They mostly had better grades though.)</p>

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<p>UCSD and SDSU are overwhelming now , but in a few years who knows? He could start out at CC and finish at one of them, or start part time and take a little longer to get a degree. They are both good schools with many choices of majors.
Although many students with diabetes do go away for school, the additional stress of dorm living, cafeteria food, may just not be a good idea for now. See how it goes.
As a junior, he’s probably not even done growing yet, but as he matures his metabolic needs will change. Right now, he needs to eat a lot of quality food and grow. Also pay attention to blood sugars as it will affect testing. He may need to have food breaks during long tests like the SAT. That’s a good score- especially at his stage of schooling.
You’ve kept him as healthy as possible- and his body and brain are still growing right now. He also has many interesting academic opportunities. It seems to be working.</p>

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<p>I want to echo what mathmom is saying. I would say your child would not be considered “average” with that math track. I would say that is the advanced math track, and most advanced kids finish up with either Calculus AB or BC. D2 got into a very fine engineering school with a 4 on the AB exam, a decent SAT math score and a decent grade on the math entrance exam at the college. Nothing that blows anyone out of the water - just solid.</p>