Seeking Guidance - Bass player wants dual degree from highly selective schools

College Majors Music Major
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I wanted to thank everyone for such incredibly helpful responses/private messages. I’m sure I will be contacting many of you individually with specific questions during this crazy process, and I really appreciate your insight.

Your responses have made me think more about my daughter’s temperament and social-emotional needs, and what would be the best environment to nurture her intellect and love of music.

I believe it is very important for her to have a close-knit community of like-minded students, where she has a sense of belonging. Belonging is important to her.

Though she’s always on the go, she seeks that close comradarie and small-group collaboration with others, whether it’s in academics, music or sports. When she finds this, she could not be happier.

She has a close-knit group of friends, but she is not super extroverted in making new social connections. It is important that she’s in an environment that is conducive for establishing supportive relationships with students, mentors, and teachers, which can be easier to do at a smaller school. Or maybe there are bigger schools with programs that feel like small, close-knit communities?

She is the kid in class who asks questions and participates fully in discussions, and works best in pairs/small groups. I think she may feel lost at a big university, in huge lecture halls, or spending majority of her time traveling between campuses, studios, labs, etc. with some of the dual degree programs.

My D has been on college visits with her siblings and has expressed that some environments just feel too big. E.g. We visited University of Michigan and while my extremely outgoing, life of the party, sports-loving son loved it there, my daughter thought it was too big. She felt the same at other Big 10 schools we visited. (e.g. Wisconsin). She has had great experiences with bass professors at both Wisconsin and Michigan and would probably be a good fit for their music programs, but I’m not sure if it’s the right social fit.

In contrast, we visited College of William & Mary in VA and she told me this type of college environment felt perfect for her (my son hated it - lol). So I think a smaller, liberal arts college may be a better fit.

I don’t think she has a strong preference for city or rural, though she likes the opportunities a city can provide. She also loves intl travel, so would definitely take advantage of foreign study programs.

She has other interests beyond academics and music, such as participating in a club hockey team or an improv comedy group… Maybe this is all too much to ask for in one college…

Also, we are prepared to pay for a 5 year dual degree program for her if she chooses that route. Though any financial aid would help, we will not limit her choices based on that.

At this point, I think she wants the dual major in science (or maybe even math) with bass performance. If she HAD to choose between the two, I think she’d choose the science/math degree as long as she had access to challenging music courses, instructors, and could participate in school orchestras/ensembles. It sounds like only some schools offer this.

However, as a college major applicant, I think she stands out more for her music as she has achieved some level of state/national recognition for it. Whereas, with science/math she hasn’t had the time to show her strengths with events like national math/science competitions, etc. So maybe this will hurt her as a science/math applicant? She did very well in natl. math/science competitions in middle school, but no longer has time for these teams. In HS, she had a choice between math team, science team, and music ensemble - she chose music. However, she should test very high in math/science (e.g. SAT, AP) given her work ethic and the record of the high school program she’s currently in.

Wow - this post has gotten long. Thank you if you’re still reading, and for all the feedback!

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@Scubaski1, I think you’re being very thoughtful. Sometimes, the emotional needs of these ambitious, accomplished students can be overlooked in the college search. Btw, my son’s a junior at NEC and loves the community there.

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@Scubaski1, you’ve received excellent advice here. The only thing I can think to add, given your description of your daughter’s comfort level with smaller programs, is that you might want to look into elite LACs (so-called “Potted Ivies”) where she could continue taking lessons with top teachers, probably off-campus. I’m thinking something like Swarthmore, where she could easily commute to Philadelphia (there is a train station at the foot of the campus) to study with Curtis faculty or a Philadelphia Orchestra level (the college will help subsidize lessons) or Princeton (mentioned thoroughly above by TiggerDad) where students sometimes commute to Juilliard by train. I’m only writing from personal experience because one of my daughters went to Swarthmore (she was not a musician but we knew of some who did what I describe above) and another to Juilliard, where she had friends who commuted from Princeton in her studio.) As universities go, Princeton is on the smaller side, but of course it’s larger than an LAC.

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Some larger schools are broken down into smaller communities. For one, Harvard and Yale have the house system, which is a three year continuing community… Also music departments are small and form another community.

Little Ivies include Bowdoin, Bates, Middlebury, Tufts, Williams, Amherst, Ct. College, Wesleyan- I may have missed one.

Just to clarify, the “Double Degree Dilemma” was written by David Lane, who at one time was head of admissions at Peabody. When he left that job, Peabody took it off their website and no one could find it. I asked David if we could post it on this forum and he sent the text and the moderator helped us post it. So it is up close to the top of the music forum, in its own thread.

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At these Little Ivies, do you think it’s possible to dual degree music/science and play a division 3 sport? Or is that just completely crazy?

The reason I ask is that these specific schools (e.g. Amherst, Middlebury) recruit girls from D’s hockey team. She wants to play college club hockey, but possibly Division 3 hockey could be doable with her academics and music? I know - this sounds like major overload - but it’s what she’s already been doing (for many years) as a serious student, bassist, and hockey player, and she loves it.

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Not to push UM in particular but my S experienced studying music there to be like a small school within a larger school and he loved it there. The music school is like its own smaller community with the larger UM campus available to draw from. So your D may want to explore some larger schools if she feels she can become a part of smaller communities within that school. I once asked my S if he had chosen to not pursue music in college but focus only on academics if he thought he would have chosen UM and he said no, he would have looked at smaller schools.
One thing for you and your D to consider is that my S felt as he delved into both degrees that one would have to suffer and not get the same attention and depth of focus as if he had been pursuing only one degree. He chose to fully explore and fulfill his music interests, did receive the second degree in math but felt that he did not have the depth of study in math as most of the other math majors.

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There are students who do the dual degree with a sport. At my son’s audition at Bard, we met a couple of conservatory students who were doing that. It sounded like they had literally no free time. My husband was encouraging my son to go there, get the dual degree, and try to play D3 soccer. Fortunately, S has enough friends who have gone done the collegiate soccer road that he only wants to continue with intramurals. Even club sports are a huge time suck, with travel every other weekend. I don’t see how that wouldn’t conflict with music responsibilities.

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@scubaski1 - do note that the programs at the Little Ivies are not “dual degree” programs which are significantly different than double majors. It’s laid out pretty clearly in the Double Degree Dilemma. A double degree is usually from two separate schools within the college/university - each with its own complete degree requirements. They’re stand alone degrees and the graduates actually are awarded two separate diplomas. In many ways it’s like going to two separate colleges, with a bit of crossover in some of the general ed classes. This is why it generally takes five years for a dual degree - vs the standard four years for a double major, which is very normal these days. There’s no reason your daughter would even need a music degree, as long as she could continue to study and perform at the level she desires - she could always take music history/theory classes as electives.

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Take a look at Vassar. Very strong LAC with historically strong music program housed in it’s own, first-rate facility on campus. Very low distribution requirements makes it relatively easy to double major - not the case at a lot of schools mentioned.

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Because you mention social-emotional needs plus the comment about finding community at a large university (like Michigan) I’ll add a couple of comments on that. You already have many good comments on schools, degrees etc.

As @cellomom2 points out, a conservatory in a university is a pretty tight community. In my D’s case there were about 20 freshmen vocalist (10 girls) and due to class requirements, ensembles etc she saw them every day for 4 years. At first, during the college search, this was attractive to her but as time went on and she started to think about the competitive nature of performance (and auditions - who gets roles etc), being with the same 20 people for 4 years worried her a bit. And of course the 20 highly competitive vocalists in her program had a variety of personalities (including hers) that she had to work with for 4 years. It doesn’t seem like your D may move toward a singular performance degree but others read these comments and comments like “being lost” at a big university are common. It’s really impossible in a performance degree to be lost. You have a “family” for 4 years. And for some personalities that’s wonderful, nurturing and constant. For other like my lovely, ever-friendly (not) D it can get old. My D went to a different grad school feeling she really needed some new faces and places. My D did in the end picked a big school for UG for the very reason of wanting some variety in social outlets and course work. She did a BS in music to allow for other interests. But conservatories at big Universities are tight communities.

HOWEVER a big school may not give the overall tight-knit school community an LAC could provide with a class of say 300 students. Again the conservatory at a big U can provide that sense but maybe a student wants that feel for the WHOLE school.

Your D is only a sophomore so its early. A lot can happen in the next two and a half years so I think it’s fine to think she can do academics and music and sports in college (while knowing it’s a little tough to do them all at a high level). She’ll work her way through those interests and how important they are. I wouldn’t clip her wings at all…but the college search process will most likely be informative about what she really wants to concentrate on and how…all in good time. Helping her to find a variety of schools and programs is great.

And while a very fine point (particularly this early), don’t forgot to think of her as a junior some day in college. During the early phase of the search you are generally thinking of a freshman. Thinking of my D as a new, angst-y freshman only produced a certain image of what was best. Thinking about her as a confident, seasoned 21 year old junior produced a different image for me. Then I had concerns about her (particular to her personality solely) at a smaller school in a smaller town … having dated within a limited pool of boys with no new prospects the next year with incoming freshmen…well that made a school with a graduate program more acceptable! And music schools with graduate programs were to be questioned…or maybe not. Sometimes it’s for the weirdest reasons you (or your kid) have a college search epiphany.

Of course that is somewhat in jest (but partly true).

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I PM’d you, which you hopefully saw. The small liberal arts schools are great, but really visit and try to hear orchestra and chamber music in person, and talk to various musicians. Most of these schools (except those attached to conservatories-- Oberlin, Bard, Lawrence) just don’t have that many really accomplished musicians, even if the school generally values the arts–just because the schools are small. That can be fine, depending on what your daughter wants, but, when we were looking, we learned it was especially difficult to have a good chamber music program and find enough other similar musicians to play with. The schools are just too small, and then have a bit of a problem attracting in serious musicians (again, those with conservatories are different). There are still always a few really accomplished musicians who chose the school for other reasons, but just check out the various ensembles carefully.

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Has your daughter looked at Rice? Not sure a dual degree is offered, but my understanding from my daughter’s friends is that the academic experience for a music major is pretty tough. Students must be admitted to Rice to attend the school of music there, so transferring out might not be overly difficult if your daughter’s focus shifts during her undergrad years. In any case, it’s one of the top music schools in the country at a highly competitive academic school, and it’s quite small (under 4,000 undergrad) and not particularly Oberlin-y

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Saw this post this morning and thought I would chime in as a parent who is on the other side (all three of mine are out of college and mostly out of graduate school…one is finishing is doctorate). You need to take a GIANT step back. Yes you have a gifted talented daughter who appears to be excelling in everything. That is great. But she is a sophomore. She is young. And she likely has no idea who she is just yet. The days of being a renaissance man or woman are no more. These days most adults have to pick and choose where they want to put their energy as the expectations in any given field (whether it be sports, music or science) are that you will devote 28 hours of every 24 hour day to what you are pursuing. More importantly one thing you DO NOT WANT is for your child to burn out at age 22. For most people who are going to go on and excel in their field the real push and challenge comes after college/grad school and you want them to enter that feeling they have not used up all their energy just to “get to that point”. You want them to be able to enjoy life and be able to find a healthy and happy work-life balance. I have seen more than my share of high-school all around all-stars filled with promise go off to top colleges with everyone in our town convinced they will be the next McArthur Prize Winner or Nobel Prize Winner only to watch them become just as banal and uninteresting as every other 20 something who decides to pursue finance because it is easy and it leads to a full bank account.

If your kid is a sophomore I would make sure she is taking time to sort out what really excites her. Who are her heroes? What sort of life does she want to live? What makes her laugh? Cry? Tell her to stop focusing on checking off all those achievement boxes and maybe take a sabbatical from achievement. That might sound counter-intuititive but it would definitely help her college resume as I believe admissions counselors just yawn when they see these super achievers. Has she traveled?

Remember life is not a race and college is not the finish line. College is just the beginning. You want to raise a grownup not a college admissions master.

My son who is a musician studied with Danilo Perez, the founder of Berklee’s Global Jazz and the Panama Jazz festival. Danilo spoke about a family friend/a young girl who was brilliant who played with so much passion and poetry as a young child. The girl went off to Rice and when she returned Danilo said all the poetry and emotion was gone from her music. She had become an achievement automaton and it broke his heart. Sometimes one of the best things we can do is give our children space to become HUMANS.

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To wax a bit poetic, the college search process can be a bit like a sun rise or a sun set. It’s a gradual change. You can’t see it happening but at some point you see the light or darkness. In other words you can see a lot of opportunity and/or in the case of high-achievers…maybe some limits.

Truly the sky is the limit at the beginning…and why not? It’s good to dream a bit. However the reality is … that very few kids can do it all in college…particularly at a high level. I know she can do it all now so why not in college? I felt EXACTLY the same (and this has been discussed in other threads so it is common). It is a fair warning to say: college is NOT high school. In high school many programs (besides let say choir lol) will “share” student’s time. In college, depts (i.e., music) will “own” your student’s time…and, in some programs, ALL of it. If they are going to give you a coveted spot, they will often expect your time from 9:00 am to 11:00 pm (with one gen ed allowed in). Of course, first semester of freshman year may be a bit light and wonky but that won’t last. And even if you are not busy until 11:00 every night…you will need it open.

Also the “pool of students” in a particular dept/major will be at a high level if your student is at a selective school/program. So in high school, my D was going to be at the top of the music pool no matter how hard she worked or how much she split her time. It’s because she talented musically. Her class was over 800; and she was at a big suburban school that was a steroids…like so many. Still the talent pool in vocal arts came down to a few girls in her class…that if my D put her mind to it, she could out-perform them. Well…the college landscape turned out to be 20 kids just as talented as her…and if she dared split her time…she would never keep up. Honestly it was a 4 year SPRINT. So you do need to consider the pool of talent and if your D is competitive (most likely) how will she feel being in 3 different areas part-time when many of the other kids are full-time and possibly advancing at a faster pace. That is a new reality for many high achieving kids…and can cause distress for some.

Now I don’t know every school out there…and I think some LACs cater to a more renaissance student…understanding its a competitive advantage. And, maybe you buck the trend of the “sprint” and really look for an environment and teachers that encourage diverse interest and “share” time. It truly is NOT a race and she should be able to have a variety if that’s what makes her happy. Still she will most likely need to at some point before or after college begins to determine where she wants to put most of her time. Two pursuits - academic and serious music? Sure. And I think some very competitive schools have dual degree programs that musically and academically talented kids can do (tough still they have both talents - but you will see the kids/parents say it is hard). Then to add playing a sport…uff da…that one is tough. Maybe at an LAC in freshmen year and then monitor it? Three activities will just be tough.

But for now, let her do it all in high school if she’s truly happy with that. Just be aware that college is different; and colleges are different. So finding the right fit for her will definitely require figuring out in the summer of senior year if she still wants to do it all (some activities at a more reasonable level) or be more focused at a very competitive level. The hard thing with high achievers is that they want it all and at the highest level … and that unfortunately can lead to some rough days at college…as @StacJip warns. I hope this helps in some way.

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Have you looked into Johns Hopkins (Peabody Institute), Carnegie Mellon, URochester?

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Stac Jip always posts excellent advice, and well-put.

See what the next two years brings. Also it is important to know that interests can be followed in sequence. So if a student, for instance goes for music and craves academics, the path can be changed or vice versa. And not just during college but after. I know musicians who studied Medievel Studies in grad school and I know accomplished musicians who studied philosophy. Many doctors were music majors.

Doing music, science and a sport sounds pretty impossible unless the sport is a club sport or informal or small scale intramural or something. Making science OR music a major makes sense; music may be easier to continue outside the major. There ARE kids who do a double degree with music and science. A double major might mean more sanity in life style.

In any case, she must be 15 so lots of time. No need to drop options yet. She can decide later.

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Thank you for all the thoughtful responses. I apologize if I haven’t had a chance to respond individually to each poster, but know that I appreciate all the insight!

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StacJic Thank you for your insight. I do want to emphasize that the hard work, competitiveness, achievement drive, and college research/direction is coming 100% straight from the child, and not from any parental push. I don't think we've ever even told D to study/do homework, or practice her instrument (not even in elementary school)...

D is a very joyous, and well-adjusted kid. Academics come easy to her. Music and sports are her stress outlets. She loves volunteering, and, yes, traveling. She’s traveled throughout the world with family, orchestras, mission trips… Yes, she talks about “the life she wants to live,” and what makes her “laugh and cry” and the perspective she has gained volunteering with e.g. the physically disabled/vets as a sport guide, or helping inner city kids learn music, or playing throughout Europe staying with host families, or building houses in 3rd world countries - she has had these experiences and will continue to have meaningful experiences to gain perspective… And yes, she has heroes, and passions, and big dreams… So I believe she is on the right path to becoming a pretty good human.

Yesterday, she came come from school and talked excitedly about math and matrices, she then played hockey with her best friends, probably smiled the whole time… On the car ride home, she put on Tchaikovsky and told her friends how “it gave her chills.”

We are very cognizant about “burnout” potential, and continually address it with her. I’ve asked her to maybe not join so many sports teams, or ensembles, or not volunteer as much, so she’ll have more downtime. I’ve told her to not worry if she doesn’t get the A… I’ve stressed she should slow down and enjoy her HS years. But that is not what she wants to do, and ultimately it is her decision. She has even told me she doesn’t like much downtime. She’d rather be always “on the go” working toward a goal.

So this is the kid she is now - energetic, driven, passionate, and happy, and luckily well-supported by friends/family. So there are no lifestyle changes I think she needs to make. She just needs to keep being herself, and be prepared for the next up in the journey. And I am here on this site because I want to support her dreams and direction, but I do understand directions change, competition gets more fierce, some doors close while others open… and she needs to be mentally prepared for that, which I think she is.

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@happy1 - coincidentally John Hopkins/Peabody admission director is doing a college presentation at D’s orchestra next week, so think we may go to get more information.

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^^ it’s true, although you might be able to be in a fine private studio, you won’t get the orchestra and chamber experience of a conservatory at most colleges and universities (if any, unless it’s a dual program.) It really depends on what your daughter is looking for.