Seeking inputs on early strategy

Parents Forum
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<p>Dad II,
First, is you son in the top 10% of his class?
If not, then based on Penn’s CDS, he does not have a good chance of acceptance, as Penn seems to be very rank conscious.
[Penn</a> Admissions: Incoming Class Profile](<a href=“http://www.admissionsug.upenn.edu/profile/]Penn”>http://www.admissionsug.upenn.edu/profile/)
Second, IF his stats are NOT on par with your D’s, then applying to Stanford SCEA on the hope that in these tough economic times, Stanford puts more value on having a sibling who ALSO needs financial aid, than on another student with higher stats and better grades, is just naive. In other threads it was calculated that the actual SCEA acceptance rate for those who are NOT DA’s, legacies [children of parents who went to Stanford and have contributed since graduation, which is the only kind of legacy Stanford cares about], athletic recruits, children of staff, and URM’s, is actually closer to 10%.[ see idad’s post above]</p>

<p>I also just heard that Stanford has cut back on it’s athletic scholarships this year for financial reasons, forcing many kids who had Stanford athletic coaches “commitment’s”, to scrambling for any uncommitted recruited openings back at Ivys. Stanford is tightening it’s budget and it will have an effect on admissions decisions. </p>

<p>Third, based on multiple posts on the Chicago forums over the past 4 years and from my families own personal experience with Chicago, I would NOT expect that you would be happy with the FA package you as an “upper middle class family” [ in their eyes] would be likely to receive. Chicago is not “up front” as to the formula they use to calculate FA, like many of their richer peers, and time and time again I have read that MC students are forced to go elsewhere because Chicago’s FA offer was too small to make it affordable. That’s what happened to us. Even after an appeal, they offered S $18-20 less per year than 6 other top colleges [D,B,W,P,C,V] where he was accepted. That by itself is not a good reason to forgo applying EA at Chicago, just don’t hold your breathe in hopes of a great FA package.</p>

<p>And as this year is expected to be the top of the admissions boomlet, it is more important than ever to find a financial safety wher your S would be happy .
I am in agreement that to allow, let alone encourage, your S to apply ED anywhere when you know you need and want substantial FA is just foolish. This has been said thousands of times on the FA forums. If you need FA then you should wait until April to compare offers and “negotiate”, as you did with Stanford.</p>

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<p>This might actually be the best strategy for you, Dad II. Because you can then also take advantage of the many schools that would be <em>begging</em> to throw money at a kid like your son. Because FA is a real issue for you, have you looked at any of the schools that have been suggested to you that would give your kid significant merit money?</p>

<p>The chances of you having it all – the prestige school that is desired, AND the FA that makes it doable – is quite slim. Especially because Asian male applicants are a dime a dozen at the schools you desire. However, the chance of you having a less prestigious school but significant FA could be quite high if you choose to try that strategy.</p>

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<p>from Penn website. did not mention no other EA, just not any other ED. </p>

<p>While I am not going to disclose details, I could assure everyone that we are not an “upper middle class family” in any body’s eyes. However, the example s of 18~20K/year short of Duke, cornell, and Vandy (if my guess is correct) do concern me. Thank you.</p>

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<p>^^It was Dartmouth.
“I could assure everyone that we are not an “upper middle class family” in any body’s eyes”
Dad, we showed income below $80 K and Chicago offered us all of $1K in aid. Believe me, based on your prior posts when your D was applying to colleges[ unless a LOT has changed], you ARE UMC in Chicago’s eyes!.</p>

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<p>You could apply EA at Chicago and ED anwhere. If you should get accepted under ED then you must go to the ED school and turn Chicago down. Georgetown’s EA agreement is you can’t apply ED anywhere.</p>

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<p>Have you looked into Tulane? They give 100 full-tuition scholarships for kids who have, I believe, something like 2250 on SAT’s and ACT’s of 32 or 33, which I am sure your son would be in the ballpark for. Full tuition at a Tulane is nothing to sneeze at. </p>

<p>You have to prioritize one goal over the other. </p>

<p>Is it prestige of school, in which case if S gets into Stanford, Penn or Chicago and even if FA is not sufficient, you will figure out a way to get him there? Because honestly I can’t imagine a circumstance in which you wouldn’t have S go to one of those schools if he got in. I suspect you would choose to live extremely frugally rather than turn down those opportunities.</p>

<p>Or is it financial aid? In which case, everyone is right, the ED is not a good strategy, and in which case you need to look to schools that would offer merit money to S.</p>

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<p>Thank you for the tip that apply Chicago EA really does not offer any “benefit” other than know the result early. </p>

<p>So, it is Penn ED Vs Stanford SCEA. Called Penn and basically being told that they do love their ED applicants. However, don’t do it if you are not sure about FA.</p>

<p>LOL, PG, we are ALREADY “live extremely frugally”.</p>

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<p>Chicago EA always has an admission rate somewhat higher than the RD rate – last year it was roughly 33% vs. 25%, not counting deferred EA kids accepted RD. The EA dynamics at Chicago are a little hard to figure out. My suspicion is that the RD pool is actually a little stronger, because it includes so many kids who were deferred SCEA or ED at one of the Ivies. Last year, there was a significant decrease in EA applications vs. the year before, followed by a similar increase in RD applications, which made no sense.</p>

<p>On the financial aid front, Chicago does seem to have a competitiveness problem at the “working middle class” level. But I wouldn’t let that deter anyone from applying this year. It’s glaring enough that it’s something I expect the new Dean/VP to want to fix quickly.</p>

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<p>It’s time to look around for other schools where your Son’s grades & scores put him in the 75% and which offer merit $ or have a history of generous FA. To continue to think that there is an advantage of applying SCEA at Stanford if his stats, scores and EC’s are not on par with your D’s, when it restricts other colleges he can apply to early, is myopic thinking. What you in all probability [10 % accepted = 90% rejected] will be left with is a thin envelope in the beginning of Dec, and disappointment. And remember, Stanford defers acceptance decisions on only 15% of SCEA applicants to the regular round, unlike many other colleges.[ A deferral letter from S is known around here as a polite way of saying “No”] The rest are rejected outright. I believe that the days of trying to “game the system” by applying early are long over, because applying early to top colleges is no longer a “well kept secret” as it once was. When there are thousands of well qualified early applicants, the admissions committees at top colleges have the job of trying to decide who they must reject, not who they can admit.</p>

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<p>newbie here, but isn’t ED/SCEA much harder because that’s when all the athletes go in? I’m thinking Brown ED or Stanford SCEA and others who have EA use that app period to accept most of their recruited athletes.</p>

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<p>^^ Exactly!</p>

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<p>Dad II, didn’t you buy new camera equipment and take a vacation outside the country not all too long ago?</p>

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<p>^^ that’s not lively “frugally” in my way of thinking these days.</p>

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<p>DadII, you should not hesitate to post your questions nor should you fear getting lectured. All that is needed from your part if keeping an open mind about people suggestions and offers to help. I think that, by now, and based on your prior experience, you should be better equipped to recognize sound advice and … leave the “lectures” aside. </p>

<p>Regarding your plan, do NOT focus so hard on the chances to be accepted ED, EA, or SCEA. You really should look at the chances in the REGULAR decision round as opposed to trying to measure the bigger benefit of applying early. Yes, it is a fact that Penn does give substantial advantages in its ED round (since it relies so heavily on it for its yield) but that does not mean that your son will face drastically easier hurdles in the ED. To make a long story short, I believe that your son will have the SAME odds in the ED as in the RD at Penn. Considering the self-described FA situation, Penn ED does not appear to be a good option. Although different, the situation is similar for Chicago. Your son will have the same chances in RD as in EA. </p>

<p>This leaves you with Stanford. This is the school where your son stands the SMALLEST chance of being accepted RD. It should help to have a SCEA application there, and you already know what to expect from Stanford’s FA. </p>

<p>While SCEA at Stanford is still brutal, the benefit is that you and your son can prepare a ton of applications for the RD rounds … if needed. Even if accepted at Stanford, you still can apply RD to Chicago and Penn, and to a good number of others schools that might compare positively to Stanford. </p>

<p>All in all, this is not such a complicated deal. :)</p>

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<p>Hi, xiggi. Thanks for your reply. </p>

<p>Just wondering so, why do you “believe that your son will have the SAME odds in the ED as in the RD at Penn.”? </p>

<p>I don’t think anyone would say going to Penn is a bad deal. Their FA might not be as good as S but should be above average. DS likes it. So, applying there ED make sense to me.</p>

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<p>Stanford has such outstanding aid, I would not hesitate to apply there EA needing aid. The only issue is if the competition is H and Y, which offer better aid for some because they don’t count any home equity and S does.</p>

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<p>“To make a long story short, I believe that your son will have the SAME odds in the ED as in the RD at Penn.”</p>

<p>I do not agree with this. My daughter’s counselor told her that if she didn’t apply ED to Penn she likely would be giving up an acceptance. She liked Penn enough but not enough to commit to ED. We also needed to look at financial aid packages, so it really wasn’t an option. She was accepted to Harvard (SCEA) and Columbia but not Penn in the RD round.</p>

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<p>DadII, this is what I wrote:</p>

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<p>What I meant is that your son’s application will still have all the same information. He will be the same applicant. My point is that, unless I missed something, your son will not be part of the development pool or have any other admission’s advantages, be it from athletics or legacies. This means that he will seen the same way in a regular pool as it would be in the early pool. As you know, some lile to make the point that the ED represents a pool that is more selective (although being lower for many “special” cases.)</p>

<p>All in all, I believe that his chances of admission are pretty much the same in RD as they are in ED. Statistically incorrect on the average, but realistic and correct on an individual basis! :)</p>

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<p>^ The statistical “canceling out” of early pools is debatable, but IIRC Penn openly states that it gives qualified ED applicants an advantage over RD.</p>

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<p>But its sounds like DS doesn’t really want to go to Stanford. YOU want him to go to Stanford, understandibly b/c it meets the prestige and financial goals. But what happened to your PROMISE to let this be HIS choice and NOT YOURS? You ask the same questions over and over, with slightly different iterations, and then don’t listen to the suggestions. Gee, why on earth would you think you might get a lecture? :rolleyes:</p>

<p>If you really, truly NEED FA, DON’T apply anywhere ED. Stanford SCEA makes the best financial and prestige choice for YOU. Be sure, BE SURE it is the best choice for YOUR SON.</p>