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<p>Yoffe also argues this as well in the article. Binge drinking is not ok for anyone.</p>
<p>DId you guys see that photo that went viral yesterday of the couple outside in front of other people?</p>
<p>no, zoosermom, what was the context?</p>
<p>I think this article makes the point about as well as you can make it, and inevitably, it still looks like blaming the victim to some people. Perhaps we can distinguish between blaming the victim for being victimized (bad) and blaming the victim for behaving imprudently in a way that makes him or her vulnerable to victimization. The example of leaving the keys in your unlocked car on a deserted street is a good one–the fact that you did this does not lessen the guilt of the car thief one bit. But it’s imprudent–and your friends will think you are nuts if you do this. But there seems to be a strong resistance to saying to women in particular that binge drinking is imprudent because it makes you vulnerable (what Yoffe is saying). I think this is because there has been a real history of blaming rape victims.</p>
<p>Even if it’s true that these campus rapes are the work of serial rapists, it seems to me that these may still be crimes of opportunity, and that the perpetrators would not necessarily be committing forcible rapes of sober victims if there weren’t plenty of drunk, vulnerable victims available.</p>
<p>(By the way, Yoffe is also the author of a very funny book, “What the Dog Did,” and some hilarious “human guinea pig” columns.)</p>
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<p>I agree with this. I was very surprised years ago when I read my first “drinking” thread and saw the reaction. I think perhaps you are correct Hunt, in your assessment of why this happens.</p>
<p>A couple having intimate contact in public being photographed by onlookers. The news reports said that they posed with onlookers afterward and with each other. When the photo went viral a rape accusation was lodged. I find this very shocking.</p>
<p>This very conversation came up in my house this morning with my tween daughter. </p>
<p>I generally keep her away from sensationalist news but felt that her hearing the recent news story about the 14 yo girl who sneaked out of the houe with a 13 yo friend to go to a party at a 17 yo boys house, got drunk, and was raped was a good opportunity to discuss it. Many bad choices were made. It is a hard line to walk between blaming the victim, blaming all teen age boys as horndogs laying in wait, and acknowleding that bad choices were a contributing factor. </p>
<p>I decided my daughter needs to know that at the VERY LEAST being impaired puts both YOU and others at risk of making stupid decisions, being victimized and/or incurring injury.</p>
<p>A hard line to walk indeed. I was wondering when someone was going to finally point out the poor choices made by the young lady in Maryville, Mo. I’m not trying to hold up for the young men who raped her in any way, shape or form. What they did was reprehensible and they deserve everything coming to them and then some. But at the end of the day, we are all responsible for our behavior and the decisions we make. In a perfect world, no one would take advantange of the poor decisions of anyone else, male or female. But we don’t live in a perfect world and we have to take responsibility for protecting ourselves from these kinds of people.</p>
<p>I agree with you footballmom. We don’t live in the exact world we wish we did and all we can do is make the best of what we have. I don’t think binge drinking is ever anything but dangerous for all sorts of reasons. I am completely fine to tell my kids that.</p>
<p>The thing about the Maryville case was that I don’t think 13 or 14 year olds are mature enough to make good decisions or to be expected never to be impulsive. That’s why they still need parents and decent people to protect children.</p>
<p>(on rereading, of course, it is not “sneaked” and misc other typos…to late to edit)</p>
<p>Some HS girls in NYC have done some interesting work on this subject. Check out their website: [url=<a href=“http://sluttheplay.com%5DSLUT%5B/url”>http://sluttheplay.com]SLUT[/url</a>] (I’m new, so if this is not allowed I apologize in advance).</p>
<p>No, “sneaked” is correct.</p>
<p>I think this part of the article is important:</p>
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<p>This is NOT the same as the person who walks through a dangerous neighborhood or leaves the keys in the ignition. In those cases, a stranger is the perp. The perp didn’t induce the victim to leave the keys in the ignition or to walk through the neighborhood.</p>
<p>Change the analogy. Say you enjoy a friendly game of poker. A “friend” you met playing poker invites you to a poker game, which you assume will have the same low stakes as you’re used to. You go to the game with your “friend”. He replenishes your drink when you aren’t looking and so you end up having a lot more booze than you intended. You continue to play. You’re losing. You may try to leave. Your “friend” encourages you to stay. At the end of the game when it comes time to cash in, you find out you’ve lost a couple thousand dollars–which you really can’t afford. You’re stunned, but you’re intimidated by all the other players who act as if it’s just assumed you knew how high the stakes are. Or maybe you’re so inebriated, you don’t realize just how much cash you’re paying out.</p>
<p>You try to contact your “friend.” He doesn’t return your calls. Later you learn that several other people have had the same experience with the same “friend.” It becomes evident that he goes to those low stakes poker games where you met him to find victims who might drink a bit too much and aren’t great players for the PURPOSE of taking them to the other games.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that while the person who got cleaned out at the poker game made a lot of bad decisions, he would never have made them but for the actions of his “friend.” He would never have played for high stakes. He would not have had as much to drink. He might have complained about the unexpected results if he hadn’t found himself alone with his “friend” and the friend’s allies. </p>
<p>My analogy may be a bit far fetched. However, I think it’s a lot more analogous to the typical date rape case than the “walking through a bad neighborhood” or “leaving the keys in the ignition” analogies. Yes, the victims made bad decisions, but in many, if not most cases, the perp influenced them to make those decisions.</p>
<p>One thing we ought to tell both our Ds and Ss is to NEVER let a male --even a trusted friend–escort a drunken female home alone. If at all humanly possible, get 2 other people, one male and one female, to help. And if you’re at a frat, don’t let a drunken woman disappear within the house–even if a guy tells you she’s just “sleeping it off”</p>
<p>Yes, college women should be told to stay sober. But lets not act as if the male rapist just “accidentally” raped someone.</p>
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I think this is very brilliant because the majority of people who wouldn’t victimize someone, probably think that if their mutual friend is taking care of the woman, then she is in good hands. Not unreasonable to think. But making a buddy policy as a matter of course protects both the men and the women.</p>
<p>But no one should get drunk to the point of being unable to function. There are other terrible things that could happen, even without a villain, when good judgment is not possible.</p>
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I think this is a decent analogy, but didn’t the person still act imprudently? Of course we blame the friend much more–indeed, this “friend”–like the rapist–is morally worse (in my opinion) than the guy who just steals some stranger’s car. Sadly, it seems the necessary message is that nobody is trustworthy enough for a college student to get so drunk that she or he is at the mercy of that person.</p>
<p>I’ll just add that I don’t like the term “accidental rapist.” I don’t really believe in accidental rapists, either. But I do believe that drunk people have sex in various different circumstances, and they don’t all include a (relatively) sober serial rapist and a drunk victim. These inherent proof problems make life easier for the serial rapists. They can hide among all the drunk people, and the people having random hookups.</p>
<p>^ All of our analogies are somewhat flawed. The problem I have with the poker analogy is that small-stakes poker players getting sucked into a high-stakes game is not a well-known or publicized risk, while college girls getting sexually assaulted when they are drunk is a highly publicized and known risk.</p>
<p>I’m not sure your analogy works for me, jonri. The poker player in your example PLANS to scam gullible people out of their money. In date-rape cases, I don’t think there is usually that level of premeditation. It’s more that judgment is impaired and a guy who in more sober moments would respect a girl’s resistance doesn’t exercise the restraint he should. This again is why telling our sons AND our daughters how to be responsible when alcohol is involved is so important.</p>
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While I think this can happen, I have been persuaded that there are people who do this with premeditation–and possibly, a lot of them. But in either case, if you get drunk, you are putting yourself in the hands of this person.</p>
<p>This is the case I was talking about</p>
<p>[Photo</a> of couple engaging in public sex act actually picture of rape, female student says - NY Daily News](<a href=“National News - New York Daily News”>Photo of couple engaging in public sex act actually picture of rape, female student says)</p>
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<p>Yes. I agreed. I thought that was clear from my post:</p>
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<p>I think it’s much better to err on the side of assuming that than to do what most first year female college students do and assume that they can trust someone they’ve known a very short period of time just because he goes to the same college she does. Remember the Yale woman who asked a resident adviser to walk her back to her college because she felt “odd?” He ended up having sex with her; she’d been roofied, but not by him. He said the sex was “consensual.” She said she only consented because she’d been drugged and she had TOLD him she felt “weird” and thought something was wrong with her and asked him to escort her back to her college from the party at which she was roofied. He wasn’t even a “friend.” She trusted him because she knew he was a RA in the same college. </p>
<p>Moreover, it’s usually not the drunken female who is making the decision to trust the guy; it’s the observers who see her leave with him. There’s a reason most victims of acquaintance rape are first year students–usually those who have been on campus six weeks or less. After a year of college, most female college students have learned that not every guy at XYZ college who offers to help a drunken girl is acting in good faith. Moreover, sometimes they know who the “alleged” serial rapists at the school are; first year students rarely do.</p>