<p>What sly undercurrent? New poster or long time lurker? Mini’s point, for a long time now, has been that what we superficially learn about how colleges manage crises is nowhere near the full picture. Sometimes even misleading. I disagreed, on an earlier thread, about how casual surveys should be interpreted, but mini’s point is valid and worthy of consideration. IMO.</p>
<p>I’ll also repeat that, during another long thread, I had a convo with D1, a very rational kid- and she immediately had plenty to say about gals/situations and their hesitance to report. How they often don’t react to all this as “rape” and don’t see a “need” to report. They settle for talking amongst themselves. </p>
<p>Where do you get YOUR info, katara? Is Yale safer? Safer in what respect? After the fact or in preventing the problems? It’s not wise to either claim all colleges sweep this under the rug, NOR that some environment is better, yet, because of the attention to the issues. The first problem is that unwanted sex occurs. The issue of how a school responds comes after. Think about that.</p>
<p>I’ll get the quotes, DMom. The wisest advice is to teach our kids about decision-making.</p>
<p>The “problem” with blaming activist communication and rape education, or discouraging the same is that we know that the best prevention is bystander intervention and victim awareness. </p>
<p>The more aware, the more likely the student population is to step in and prevent the rapist from isolating the intoxicated potential victim, etc…</p>
<p>Very few colleges have dealt with this issue well, in the past. Activists are responsible for making this issue the issue it is now and for forcing policy changes on campuses all over the country. </p>
<p>Given what we know about sex offenders and their patterns, the best thing a campus can do is to keep excellent records and encourage reporting. Nothing else will get these criminals off of your daughters’ campuses.</p>
<p>Just talking here- after the fact, there are multiple avenues. But, imo, top priority should be the needs of the victim, at that moment and in the time ahead. We all should recognize that the opportunity for victim confidentiality is critical. In part, that’s why colleges are told to allow for that. If a victim chooses to reveal publicly, that is her/his choice. If you don’t like that, tough. Take that fight somewhere else.</p>
<p>We’re sitting here, at our computers. We are not the victims. If it hasn’t happened to us, we can only try to imagine the reactions. We can do all the chatting we want- but what matters is that, if this happens, the student should know where to turn, what to do. Do they? From where we sit, I don’t know. Are there posters across campus and in dorms, is it at the top of the handbook? Do our kids know the main number for the campus operator, to get connected to a crisis counseling team? Or would a kid have to know the freaking keywords and try googling? </p>
<p>And, understand, that while it is rational to say, call the police, these victims may have other, immediate needs. They may not want to speak with dispatch or go to the hospital, they may want comforts- or not even know what they want. On campus, in an environment of peers, they may not have a clear view.</p>
<p>We have to work with our kids, to let them truly understand. Honestly, I had these talks with my kids from a very young age- and I don’t think even I completed the job.</p>
<p>Dodgersmom, here is some of it.<br>
Frankly, not sure what I googled before. Maybe the college name and title ix sexual.
But, this is too complicated. This info should be available and all over the place. We can read all the links and sublinks and get an idea. I hope there is more accessible, more immediate info all over campuses. I don’t know.</p>
<p>All this tells us is what the college states, not how it is to be down there at ground zero.</p>
<p>Last thing: about “prevent the rapist from isolating the intoxicated potential victim-” Yes. But, I still come back to the fact that college kids shouldn’t be so stupid as to become “potential rapists.” There has got to be some sense that the urges can wait. Some change in the freaking culture. </p>
<p>Oxy: [Sexual</a> Assault Resources & Support | Occidental College | The Liberal Arts College in Los Angeles](<a href=“http://www.oxy.edu/sexual-assault-resources-support/]Sexual”>Sexual Respect & Title IX)
under “get help” and “how to report,” the first number is 911/LAPD. And, other personal and campus resources are shown. You can dig through that link- but it reflects how complex all this is. </p>
<p>The College encourages all individuals to make a report to the College and to local law enforcement. Reporting options are not mutually exclusive. Both internal and criminal reports may be pursued simultaneously.</p>
<p>Again, first number is 911.<br> Any Swarthmore College student, faculty, or staff member who has experienced sexual harassment, misconduct, or violence is encouraged to immediately notify law enforcement and/or seek immediate medical assistance. Public Safety will provide transportation upon request.</p>
<p>There are almost always more rapists on college campuses than in surrounding neighborhoods or, really, anywhere else. This is simply a matter of demographics 1) rapists are usually in this age range, and 2) there are more easily available potential victims than anywhere else; 3) college administrations provide an easy venue, and easy access to the tools of the trade (alcohol and drugs.)</p>
<p>Studies show that many of the college rapists actually began their careers in high school.</p>
<p>I think like in our living communities we have offenses that are misdemeanors handled withe punitive punishment in the form of “tickets” - noise ordinance violations, loose dog violations. I have no problem with college communities sorting out violations that can result in punitive damages that are clearly posted and understood by the college community. I don’t have a problem if colleges want to handle their own restraining orders, cause students to move, cause students to have to suffer some college community punishment. I personally don’t have a problem if colleges want to handle their own MIPs within their community policing. I don’t even have a problem if someone wants emotional support but does not want to press criminal charges. That is their “right” not to press charges. I don’t have a problem with those colleges talk have printed information in the examples above like: Reporting options are not mutually exclusive. But I will never agree to colleges adjudicating issues that belong in the court system or adjudicating outcomes with disregard to the legal outcomes. </p>
<p>If you agree with mini perspective, then those “rapists” would be found guilty within the context of our criminal law and it would not be in the community’s interest not to call local law enforcement from any report of sexual assault. To me it’s not as “murky” as some think it is. I think we’re “making” it murky because we want to differentiate between legal assault and not legal assault in some way and that is for the judicial system to differentiate and for the colleges to turn over to law enforcement.</p>
<p>Thanks for the links, lookingforward! Clearly, it is possible to get at least some of it right.</p>
<p>Just for the record, its easy to assume that a student whos assaulted would know how to report the crime if s/he wanted to. But I received a PM from a CCer who was assaulted in her dorm, years ago, and didnt tell anyone other than her RA (and friends). Shes older and wiser now, but said that, at the time, she just didnt know to call the police. It never even entered her mind. She thought reporting the assault to the RA would be enough.</p>
<p>We have threads every year asking what our high school seniors need to know before heading away from home for the first time. One of the suggestions frequently made is to teach them how to mail a letter! These kids, despite their apparent sophistication, really are very naive in a lot of ways. And after settling them in at college and telling them, You can go to the RA if you need anything, we shouldnt be surprised if many of them still dont realize that, for some incidents, they need to call the police.</p>
<p>Just including 911 in a schools posted What to do if . . . guidelines is a step in the right direction.</p>
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<p>And, yet, you keep posting. Interestingly, your only posts on CC are all on the same topic and are all similarly confrontational. Got a bit of an agenda, perhaps? Id say that you go out of your way to fan the flames . . . but, in most cases, youre the one lighting the match.</p>
<p>In any event, if you must go back and attack my original post yet again, please at least read it first.</p>
<p>It would never occur to me that a young person would not know to call 911 or the police if they were the victim of a crime or go to legal aid or call a lawyer if they were accused of something. Guess I better check with my kids and make sure we instilled that lesson.</p>
<p>Agenda? No. How do I know there was a 3,100% increase in sexual assaults at a west coast LAC? Its called employment. Takes work. A little more than a passing interest. I’d like to think we can finally make a difference. I’d like to think that the timing is right; that awareness is growing; that this is actually worth fighting for. But we also don’t need to compromise our collective integrity or values for the end result.</p>
<p>And no, I didn’t fan the flames. That would suggest something actually took hold here. </p>
<p>Best of luck with your defiance and snarkiness. It’s not really about the issue – it’s you that matters.</p>
<p>Actually Karara it’s individuals that matter. Whether it takes collective activism or not, all people need to understand their legal rights in a clearly comprehensible manner. I do think being divisive generally slows the process.</p>
<p>College do not need to be indifferent to criminal behavior but they are also not necessarily the best avenue to follow in legal matters. If young people understood to call the police if victims of a crime your claim of a 3100% increase in sexual s at a west coast LAC would be alarming news indeed. Title IX requires compliance to complaints but does not offer specific remedies. The legal system offers specific remedies.</p>
<p>If one believes former Penn State assistant coach Mike McQueary, he witnessed what amounts to child rape by a sixty year old man. Not only did he not forceably intervene, neither did he call 911. Instead, he went to his office and called his father. The next day, he went not to the police, but to coach Paterno’s home to discuss what he had seen. I think with sexual assault, even adults don’t always know how to define it in their brain. Imagine being a victim, with all the swirling emotions that occur after being sexually assaulted. I, too, would think it would be a no brainer to immediately call 911, but the more I read about it, the more I think we really have to do a better job of educating people about sexual assault and what should happen if the worst occurs. I don’t think you can give these college kids too much information. Better to err on the side of too much education than not enough.</p>
<p>momofthreeboys: I agree about the divisiveness. This site is here to help people make choices about college. What a great opportunity to get the message out that some colleges foster a rape culture through their policies and prospective students should consider that in their decision-making and alumni should demand changes. But that was immediately lost with an attack on Yale. Why? I’m baffled. So this devolves into a meaningless thread. Sad.</p>
<p>I do not think for one moment that college communities foster a rape culture, not on any level. And a don’t think these threads become meaningless.</p>
<p>I think the discussion can be around what is appropriate or not. If one is to believe Mini and his cited sources people that are sexual predators do not do this once. Title IX operates in a vacuum expecting administrators to determine whether the behavior is pervasive to fall within the definition of “discrimination” and to date I believe the courts are split on how and what actions meet those definitions. The judicial system does not have to deal with words like “pervasive” or “discriminatory”. You accuse someone of sexual abuse and if the accused is found guilty there is clear punishment, doesn’t matter if it’s “pervasive” behavior or even discriminatory…it only need to happen once. </p>
<p>How many “reports” does a college need to receive from accusers before they are confident in culpability to meet the meaning of pervasive and discriminatory to boot someone off campus and to protect their own legal butts? And what good does that do for society to release someone simply to abuse a different set of victims? I would not want to be a victim or an accuser caught in such an ambiguous situation.</p>
<p>Clearly I’m not fan of the expanded use of Title IX but at a very minimum hopefully it will morph and be used to help victims understand the ramifications of the path they choose to pursue rather than an alternative “remedy” to our existing judicial system.</p>
<p>Not sure I understand katara’s position.
Says Yale is making headway, implying it’s a fine environment for daughters- but wouldn’t send his/her son to a school where activists are trying to…make headway? Noting the tag teams with their little bombs accusing some colleges of cover-ups, but also claiming colleges are encouraging a rape culture, at the same time. Calling certain colleges “safer” because the activists are raising awareness. while putting down a longtime poster as a gadfly, so activists can pressure Yale to do more. (And, not the first thread where he went after mini. Why?)</p>
<p>You appreciate activists or you fear them and the damage they could do to sons? How do you think the reporting numbers at your LAC went up? More assaults? Or more willingness to report them? (For the record, I don’t want an answer.)</p>
<p>In an anon forum, people tend to work with what they know or feel. Some dig deeper, others seem to feel they already get it. It becomes a conversation. We don’t all always like it. So be it. But, when it is a new poster, (one we have no track with, to judge where he or she comes from, what the resources are,) who tells us, a few times and in a few ways, that we are the wrong ones, it sits badly.</p>
<p>Mom3, I looked for some of the stats referred to here- and am not confident I found them. But, I did see the number of accused rapists sent to jail is minimal. I agree T9 needs to morph-- it is very clearly written, but perhaps missing some of the bite it needs.</p>
<p>I have no doubt the numbers of jailed sex offenders is low. I’m guessing many women don’t press charges. I’m bothered by moving even further the idea that sexual assault is a civil matter (as the expanded Title IX seems to do) and I believe the DOE has overstepped it’s authority by allowing crimes to be somewhat reclassified. I do not think we are “helping” our young people with these actions, only adding to the confusion about what should be done by a victim of a sexual assault. </p>
<p>I do not think it will stand the tests of the courts over time because of the rights not afforded to the accused. At the very worse I suspect colleges and universities will err on the legal safe side doing the minimum they feel they can legally do, a slap on the wrist response. How does that help a college community over the long haul? Frankly if I were the victim of sexual abuse on a college campus I’d want the person in jail…not living in a dorm on the other side of campus which is a far more likely outcome than the accused being booted from campus permanently. Meanwhile, the lawyers in hot pursuit of the college because due process under law was abused resulting iin the whole episode ending up in the judicial system ultimately. I wouldn’t want a daughter or a son caught in that hot mess.</p>