<p>A Man should always Pay, My wife will not even have a job.</p>
<p>Frankly, I think that question is absurd. I don't know where you get "walking checkbook" from my posts, except to say that it's a DATE, people. I have said, COUNTLESS times, that I simply do not care how much a man spends on me. I also do not care if he doesn't have money and does something free but still makes it romantic. If you derive "walking checkbook" from that, please tell me where you live and I'll help you find a therapist.</p>
<p>I am sorry for you that you equate "give and take" with "using" another person. Those are entirely different concepts. </p>
<p>When I drive my friends home, because I prefer them to be safe, I do not feel like a chauffeur. When I feed my friends and host dinner parties, I do not feel like a caterer. When I treat my boyfriends, I do not feel like a sugar momma. If I did, that would be my issue - if I cannot be nice to people without feeling used, then I would have problems.</p>
<p>What shocks me is that this is even a controversial stand. I'm not saying that men must do dinner; that men must always pay; that women shouldn't even pay half; I'm just saying that if you're dating someone, then act like it. Apparently, following words with action is not really on y'all's agenda.</p>
<p>I think you're overreacting. I'm not saying that give and take isn't important-- in fact, I see all relationships as cost benefit transactions over the long-run.</p>
<p>However, it's very easy, as a man, to become marginalized as a "walking checkbook." This is where I think women stop thinking past their own noses. They're constantly trumpeting how we need to defend their rights to independence, but the second a man asks for a first date, he's a selfish jerk.</p>
<p>The door swings both ways. From the first date to the last breath. </p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm not saying that men must do dinner; that men must always pay; that women shouldn't even pay half; I'm just saying that if you're dating someone, then act like it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You've vacillated between "some money must be spent" to "it must be romantic." I honestly can't say that I understand where you stand because I think you've modified your argument to fit whatever position you're taking. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Apparently, following words with action is not really on y'all's agenda.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Gimme a break. Just because I don't agree with your paradigm doesn't mean that I don't walk the walk.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A Man should always Pay, My wife will not even have a job.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why? :confused:</p>
<p>Because thats how it is supposed to be and its what I believe in. I believe that its a Womans job to run the household and take care of the children. When I have kids my wife will stay home with them, I'm not going to be one of those baby sitter parents. If a women has no other obligations then to her family, then I see it as being a better family and the children will be raised better.</p>
<p>The the Format of marriage works for the jews, then believe me it can work just great for everybody else.</p>
<p>Wait a sec? Who says that Jewish women are content to just stay at home?</p>
<p>
[quote]
If a women has no other obligations then to her family, then I see it as being a better family and the children will be raised better.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is understandable. But don't EXPECT it. You shouldn't coerce people.</p>
<p>have you even met a jewish women who was not a stay at home mother, im talking about real jewsish women, not the fake ones.</p>
<p>I do expect it, and id probably only marry a women who thoght the same as me.,</p>
<p>
[quote]
have you even met a jewish women who was not a stay at home mother, im talking about real jewsish women, not the fake ones.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Uh...huh. Because being a Jew is necessarily contingent upon religious piety.</p>
<p>Why do Jewish men die first?</p>
<p>Too much kvetching?</p>
<p>...you're just ignoring 90% of what I say and using the other 10% against me. If you have issue with women who use men for free dinners, fine. I take issue with those women as well. They make the rest of us look bad - basically the feminine equivalent of frat boys who get girls drunk before hooking up with them. </p>
<p>My argument is remarkably consistent and I'm tired of repeating myself. It's just that every man on this board does two things: 1) ignores most of what I say and 2) attacks me on completely stereotypical grounds, not for my viewpoints but for the viewpoints of some hypothetical people. </p>
<p>What's the complaint? "Omigod, she thinks that a man who asks out a woman should pay for the first date, if there's cost involved... she's inconsistent because, like, she'll let men plan something free and romantic. Omigod! She's not into going Dutch! Then, she thinks that it's the woman's job to reciprocate. Omigod, she soooo uses men." Gentlemen, let's return your arguments against me to their junior high girls' bathroom origins.</p>
<p>Re-read my posts, please. I've been incredibly consistent - my position is much more moderate than you want to accept. First date, man picks up whatever costs are involved. Afterwards, woman reciprocates. Parties treat each other, in whatever appropriate means, which is really much sweeter than the modern nonsense of splitting the check like obsessive-compulsive accountants.</p>
<p>Same position in every single post. Very, very moderate. I'm just asking for a freakin' first date. Cook dinner. Take her to the Smithsonian. Take her out for dinner. Coffee is not hard to find. Stargaze. Just whatever you choose to do, you're treating her. 100% of $0 is $0. That's fine. </p>
<p>UCLAri - stating that my position has been inconsistent is simply obnoxious. I'm tired of repeating myself. From here on out, I'll just reference each previous post I made with the same material, highlighted, bolfaced, and otherwise underscored for those who missed it the first dozen times. (I strongly suspect that your learning curve is much better in every other discipline.)</p>
<p>I disagree. In some posts you've said that SOME money is required for a date, as otherwise it's just friends. It wasn't until I suggested something like a hike that you started to say that it doesn't HAVE to involve money. But my general feeling has been based on sentences like these:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Dates treat each other. Friends split the tab.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Men who can't even shell out the $5 to be chivalrous are completely not worth dating.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It really wasn't until I brought up the idea of doing something costless that you even suggested that it was an option. I can't read minds. I'm strong with the Force...but not that strong.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The $5 was in reference to coffee or smoothies as an alternative to dinner. There is the tendency to turn an option into a mandate, but I am not the one who makes that a mandate and your so turning it does not make it one.</p></li>
<li><p>"Treat each other" does not imply money. If it does to you, fine. I consider a great number of things to be "treats" that don't involve spending money. If it's unclear, ask for clarification. Your new complaint is that my clarification doesn't gel with the theory that women with the gall to want to date instead of hook up are money-grubbing gimme girls. Whoops. Not my issue.</p></li>
<li><p>Neither am I a mind-reader. I also cannot be expected to, within the limited confines of the English language and without a post that resembles a mergers and acquisitions document, guard against every possible permutation of intepretation. "Treat" was used instead of "pay." Obviously, if he's planning something free but romantic, 1) there is no tab to split, friend-style; and 2) it's not something you would do with friends and therefore qualifies as a treat. </p></li>
<li><p>Get old and you'll understand. Once you see a parade of men who use feminism as a shield against acting like they are older than 15, you'll understand. Once you get old, you'll start to understand that people who can't be bothered with certain pleasantries are simply not worth being around - that non-conformity is great and all, but it is, more often than not, a justification for bad behaviour. The question posed was one of a personal nature. I answered for myself. Disagree, but please disagree with substance.</p></li>
</ol>
<ol>
<li> Fair enough.</li>
<li> Fair enough.<br></li>
<li> Fair enough.</li>
<li> Drop that, please. I think I've been in a long enough relationship to know the "ins" and "outs," despite my somewhat lesser age.</li>
</ol>
<p>Actually, it's a quantity, not a quality, thing. Law of averages. Also, sadly, as you get older, you do see the value in conforming your behaviour to distinguish yourself from those who act as you would act but are using your theories as an excuse to be jerks. </p>
<p>I do not doubt that you have more long-term relationship experience than I. I also don't know when was the last time that you've tried to date - for me, that's my mid-twenties. For you, it was probably sometime before you were legal to drink.</p>
<p>You'd be amazed how little things change 5, 6 or even 7 years down the road. Trust me...it's not like things magically transform into something new and different.</p>
<p>And yes, I was far from drinking age. But it's really not THAT hard to figure out what's going on.</p>
<p>to be honest, my ex always made me pay...im a girl btw...and it sucked completely b/c every once in while, a girl likes to be treated really well....</p>
<p>Guy always pays.
Period.</p>
<p>Half and half. We live in an equal society.</p>
<p>First date, of course. If you're in a relationship with someone, obviously it's going to be played by ear.</p>
<p>Sorry to bump up an old thread but why is ariesathena being attacked?</p>
<p>She sounds like she gives MUCH MORE than the men she's dating with and she seems to be of much higher quality than them since they apparently always cheat on her.</p>
<p>But nice guys do finish last but so do nice women.</p>
<p>Personally the things she describes sound much nicer. I'd rather get baked goods, or gift baskets or dinners or foot rubs than go dutch any day. Somehow those things would make me feel taken care of and more masculine than her paying.</p>
<p>But an independent yet feminine woman is quite attractive. I wish more women were like ariesathena. Men complain because in general very FEW women reciprocate like that.</p>
<p>Btw its usually the man cooking gourmet meals for the woman AND paying for everything. So yes many men are probably jaded.</p>
<p>If its an issue just go for coffee on a first date. but if a woman has no plans on seeing a man again it would be nice for her to pay her half.</p>