<p>When you look at many of the better LACs, somewhere
around or over 50% of the families pay full ticket. Another
35% or so pay $25,000 + per year. The last 15% are probably
money losers for the college with about 7 or 8% of them
so-called low income students. But these colleges are over-
whelming full of rich folks. The need based grants allow for
a somewhat ecomically diverse student body - something
rich famlies want. They want to see that their son or
daughter goes to a predominantly rich institution but
has some limited contact with the riff-raff. That's
important to the buyers, so the colleges have responded
with the need based system. They are serving their
customers - the wealthy ones who make the place go,
donate etc. For the top colleges, need based aid is a
necessary evil</p>
<p>This is a problem! If we could actually determine need, it would be so much easier. Someone here made the point the when a family has a $150,000 income (and whines about not getting FA), they are making 3 times the average American salary! In my mind the $50,000 income (and less) family SHOULD get some FA--maybe a combo of grants and loans--because education really is the key to breaking that cycle of poverty and our govt should help those kids obtain an education. </p>
<p>I struggle with the family that has the McMansion, luxury vehicles, vacation homes and country club memberships. They want (sometime even GET, if they are crafty) FA! It'd be easier if need could easily be defined/determined need. We know a family that fits into the latter category and found a way to get IS tuition at an OOS school. They told a ton of lies and might get caught, although it's doubtful. Lots of posters here say it can't be done, but I know that's the case with this family. Then there are suckers like me that just plug away, saving and driving a clunker so my kids can have a quality education. Funny, that family doesn't seem to have difficulty sleeping at night, either! ;-)</p>
<p>I struggle with the family that has the McMansion, luxury vehicles, vacation homes and country club memberships. They want (sometime even GET, if they are crafty) FA! It'd be easier if need could easily be defined/determined need.
[quote]
We know a family that fits into the latter category and found a way to get IS tuition at an OOS school. They told a ton of lies and might get caught, although it's doubtful. Lots of posters here say it can't be done, but I know that's the case with this family. Then there are suckers like me that just plug away, saving and driving a clunker so my kids can have a quality education. Funny, that family doesn't seem to have difficulty sleeping at night, either! ;-)
[/quote]
You catch them. I'll get the rope.</p>
<p>What I wrote had nothing to do with poor students. </p>
<p>Nothing.</p>
<p>It never did.</p>
<p>There were a lot fewer posts about poor people until all the posts defending poor people and attacking posters started.</p>
<p>Most of us were talking about page 75 and similar thoughts.</p>
<p>Many of us were defending the rights of people to feel angry when they see people in similar situations pay less for school.</p>
<p>What did these posters get in return?</p>
<p>A bunch of BS.</p>
<p>Abuse of a system by a few does not mean that the premise of the system itself is flawed.</p>
<p>Just in case it isn't commonly known - some OOS schools offer IS tuition as merit aid to entice high achieving students to attend. My daughter is one of those students and I would hate to have people think that we cheated or finagled in any way for her to receive this benefit! </p>
<p>Not saying that there aren't cheats out there. If your neighbors really did cheat I hope they get caught rutgersmamma!</p>
<p>"Someone here made the point the when a family has a $150,000 income (and whines about not getting FA), they are making 3 times the average American salary! In my mind the $50,000 income (and less) family SHOULD get some FA--"</p>
<p>I could say that the family making less than we are needs to work the second and third jobs like we do before they get the "free" money, but for the most part I don't really care. I just don't get how people who work hard and actually pay the taxes that become federal/state aid are the bad guys. NOthing wrong with sometimes wanting some of that money back. I note that Dstark's post specifically said "spendthrifts" and I have to say that I'm not a fan of those people either and would deeply resent someone with a McMansion, BMW, whatever getting helped before I do, but that has nothing to do with poor people. Thankfully, I don't know anyone like that and feel very well-treated by my daughter's school. But I do feel that the people who work and pay the taxes, while maybe not entitled to money, are entitled to respect.</p>
<p>zmom, spendthrifts only benefit from the asset section of the FA formula. The income portion is the same for them , too. While I would find it unfair for McMansion guy to get aid that I don't get, I also find it ridiculous that pension owners and retirement fund owners can (legally by formula) scam away millions (in some cases) and get FA, too. The system is broke. But all many of us are saying is don't throw the baby out with the bath water.</p>
<p>Let's fix the problem. Not create a new problem.</p>
<p>"The system is broke. But all many of us are saying is don't throw the baby out with the bath water."</p>
<p>Oh I agree with you there. I actually think that if money is going to be given to any student, it should first be grants whenever possible. Even if it's a middle class kid with two parents and no horrible obstacle to overcome. If there's need determined, try to make it a grant first. But that's just me.</p>
<p>
[quote]
scam away millions
[/quote]
</p>
<p>They are living by the current rules, Curmudgeon. Like them or not. Just as your ranch can be considered your retirement nestegg, so could the McMansion in the hot, growing area. I don't like the system, but save the "scam" terminology for the true cheats. We all know people who start to spend down or move their assets before college. Have their kid take out his savings & buy a car. Any number of perfectly legal tricks to look more needy to the financial aid powers that be. How about the ever changing treatment of 529s in students' names, or other savings vehicles that are treated completely differently depending on whose name they are under? The system stinks, and is ripe for cheating & fraud. Hence the resentment.</p>
<p>It always seems that the "haves" are the ones who figure out how to game the system and get away with it. The rest of us poor saps just plod along, lose sleep, get second jobs, and do anything else we can to pay for college. Many of us on the poor side of the equation aren't spendthrifts or uneducated people who don't hold decent jobs. Sometimes unforeseen circumstances, like illness or a period of unemployment, wipe out whatever we have. We are not trying to get something for nothing, just the same opportunities for our kids that rich kids have. I am all for need-based financial aid and am grateful for what my daughter has received (she did not receive a full-ride anywhere). I would say this even if my kid wasn't on the receiving end. However, I have also learned some hard lessons about financial aid gamesmanship which often benefits those for whom it was not intended.</p>
<p>Some folks believe that some of our students and parents have a sense of entitlement to a prestigious expensive college. I'd agree , but I think we'd be talking about a different group feeling entitled. LOL. </p>
<p>Our colleges say they value what each segment of society can bring when their finest students go to our best schools.Again, taking them at their word- to that end they have created the need based system whereby grants are provided on a sliding scale. An artificial mechanism is set up to decide how that scale slides. Many of us agree that the scale is off for the middle class. I am a vocal one of those many. But it seems some want to end the entire system. Not fix it. maybe they feel that because of their hard work (or lucky birth) those that can pay get first dibs, however advantaged their kids might have already been in schools attended, summer programs, test help, great GC's. There is an absolute disagreemnet with how the colleges themselves view the goal. In response to a q as to paraphrased: "where do folks that can't afford the freight get the crazy idea that their kid should be able to go to college with their little Johnny at Elite Expensive U. (Unsaid : Or worse, maybe instead of little Johnny or Jane?)" </p>
<p>Here was my response:
[quote]
I don't know taxguy. Maybe they heard it from Harvard.
Quote:
We want to send the strongest possible message that Harvard is open to talented students from all economic backgrounds," said Lawrence H. Summers, President of Harvard University, who addressed the American Council on Education's 86th Annual Meeting in Miami on Feb. 29. "Too often, outstanding students from families of modest means do not believe that college is an option for them — much less an Ivy League university. Our doors have long been open to talented students regardless of financial need, but many students simply do not know or believe this. We are determined to change both the perception and the reality." </p>
<p>You are a kid in Grinderswitch, what do you think after reading this on the web? </p>
<p>Or maybe Yale</p>
<p>Yale College admits students on the basis of academic and personal promise and without regard to their ability to pay. Once a student is admitted, Yale meets 100% of that student's demonstrated financial need. All aid is need-based; there are no athletic or merit-based awards. This policy helps to ensure that Yale will always be accessible to talented students from the widest possible range of backgrounds.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not by the colleges. It's not. :( I wish. As it is my only significant asset and my only "retirement vehicle" boy do I wish I got retirement plan treatment. I didn't nor did I get any love as a "capped or excluded home equity" like Mr. McMansion gets at some schools. Like I said, it's broke.</p>
<p>And I thought about the use of the word scam . Should have thought again. How about "artful but legal use of the present rules on retirement plans to fully negate/lessen the FA impact of those savings?" ;)</p>
<p>Much better! I know that your choice to buy a ranch is not viewed the same way as adding steadily to a 401K, even though you & Mr.401K may have the same goal for the use of you assets -- staying out of debtor's prison in your golden years. Very frustrating. </p>
<p>I have dear friends who had the dad retire just before the three kids hit college. (He jumped at a well-timed package.) They own an amazing lake house with some nice boats. I really don't WANT to know if this move works out for them, and my friends & I don't stick our noses in each others financial business or compare kids' stats. But I have a hunch he's better of than he'd be if he was still schlepping into Manhattan every day. LIke you said -- artful but legal.</p>
<p>" have dear friends who had the dad retire just before the three kids hit college."</p>
<p>My hubby will retire about 2 months before my widdle baby goes to college. We don't have any boats, though. Although I do aspire to boats.</p>
<p>Back to the original question, I say yes. My daughter received a small need-based grant from her private school, and a merit award and outside scholarships took the total package to a little more than half of the total cost. And I'm paying a bit more than a third of my total income out of pocket......and I'm thankful that I can. I trace the ability to meet that obligation to my own award of need-based aid back when our kids were small and we were living in poverty.</p>
<p>I give money to my alma mater deliberately so it can be used to help students without means attend. Why is it wrong for the school to give it out?</p>
<p>I totally don't see the purpose of denying education to people based upon their parents. I think we are becoming more and more of a oligarchy.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Good question. We'll have to ask somebody. ;) Unfortunately Grejuni, many on this board fail to understand that most need based aid at the colleges in question comes from the endowment. Not the government. Not their taxes. But it doesn't seem to get through.</p>
<p>Harvard's financial aid initiative (and Princeton's earlier no-loan initiative) were based on very astute economic analysis, and I applaud those programs and others like them, such as Chicago's new Odyssey scholarships.</p>
<p>The usual link is obligatory in this thead too. </p>