That $6m is targeted, for maximum effect, to those students who likely wouldn’t otherwise attend Knox. The other students wouldn’t receive the “discount” because Knox bet that they’re less likely to have better alternatives. If Knox were to give “merit” scholarships to everyone, it’d cost a lot more than the $6m and it doesn’t have the resource to do so.
1 Like
What’s wrong with Knox? Plenty of people are full pay at private colleges, and many of that full pay group pay $240k+ for colleges that are not super selective, like Knox. Knox doesn’t seem to have a problem surviving. Instead they need to turn away a notable portion of applicants each year. I expect surviving is more correlated with being in good financial health. If you don’t have a high endowment (Harvard’s endowment is $41 billion, Knox’s endowment $0.1 billion), charging a sufficient tuition is often essential to survive.
Knox is not a super selective college, like Harvard that only has top stat students. For example
Knox’s CDS mentions an ACT range of 24-31. Why should they give large merit scholarships to everyone, even if they had the resources to do so? In any case, the post wasn’t about what the cost would be if Knox gave large merit scholarships to everyone. It was what the actual cost was under their current system.
Knox itself has only 1% of frosh paying list price (99% getting some grant or scholarship aid), according to College Navigator - Knox College .
For comparison, Harvard has 43% of frosh paying list price (57% getting some grant or scholarship aid), according to College Navigator - Harvard University
It is certainly possible that, for many given family financial situations, Harvard is less expensive than Knox. However, the large percentage of list price students at Harvard (versus almost none at Knox) suggests that Harvard’s revenue per student may be higher.
It sounds like Knox did give almost everyone a “discount”.
2 Likes
Many of the IPEDS/College Navigator financial numbers are vastly inconsistent with the CDS. Assuming the IPEDS listing is accurate, it sounds like Knox does give some form of aid and/or scholarship to almost everyone. I guess it sounds better to charge a high tuition and give a discount to nearly everyone than to reduce tuition and give fewer discounts. Or perhaps they prefer more of sliding scale type price, where price is determined by financial need + merit, and sticker price is meant to be the maximum possible for the worst scenario student rather than a common result.
However, its more than certainly possible that Harvard is less expensive for certain situations. Instead it’s expected for all but upper income students. Using specific numbers from the iPEDS source you linked, the average net price by income level is listed as follows. I am assuming nearly all students in these categories received some form of aid (only students receiving aid/scholarship are included).
<$30k Income – Harvard costs $3k, Knox costs $17k
$30k-48k Income – Harvard costs $1k, Knox costs $19k
$48k-75k Income – Harvard costs $3k, Knox costs $20k
$75k-110k Income – Harvard costs $16k, Knox costs $24k
1 Like
I’m not picking on Knox per se. I only mentioned it because I used to live in the 'berg, prior to rankings when it was a decent but otherwise, fairly random small midwest LAC. What I have an issue with is pricing themselves the same as Harvard and Stanford.
Outside of the Northeast (OK, maybe the West Coast too) and some schools that are attractive to people from the Northeast (I’m thinking of Miami) and Internationals, that actually doesn’t really seem true for privates these days.
Yeah, but how relevant are these buckets when the vast majority of students at Harvard come from families making more than $110K? You can’t say that Harvard is cheaper on average when the vast majority of Harvard students aren’t in the buckets where Harvard is cheaper.
2 Likes
In theory, the colleges are non-profit, and tuition is supposed to relate to the actual cost of instruction. The more selective colleges tend to spend more on professor salary and such.
However, colleges like Harvard tend to rely on their endowment to cover a large portion of costs, so they can often get away with a lower tuition than reflected by their actual cost.
As such, cost is correlated with selectivity or whatever particular features people think makes Harvard special, but it’s far a strict relationship like Harvard charges a premium, and the next tier down much charge a discount. For example, rather than Knox, a better comparison might be Harvard vs Tufts. They are both selective private colleges in the Boston area with ~6k undergrads. Harvard is far more selective than Tufts, and many people probably think Harvard gives them a far better boost in quality of employment (I disagree with this, which I’ll expand on in a separate post.), yet as summarized below Tufts charged more than Harvard and gave fewer aid/scholarship discounts. Numbers are from IPEDS link above.
2020-21 Tuition + Fees – Harvard = $54k, Tufts = $60k
2020-21 Room & Board – Harvard = $18k, Tufts = $18k
Institutional Grants/Scholarships – Harvard = 57%, Tufts = 37%
Average Net Cost Among Grant Scholarship Recipients – Harvard = $15k, Tufts = $26k
1 Like
Percentage full pay (not receiving grant or scholarship aid) at some private non-elite colleges:
7% Baylor University
0% Centre College
4% Denison University
11% University of Denver
0% Drexel University
2% Hawaii Pacific University
13% High Point University
3% Hofstra University
5% Hope College
2% Kalamazoo College
1% Kettering University
1% Knox College
6% Lewis and Clark College
10% Loyola Marymount University
0% Marietta College
1% Milwaukee School of Engineering
0% Nova Southeastern University
4% University of the Pacific
5% Rochester Institute of Technology
1% Rose Hulman Institute of Technology
2% St. John’s College (MD)
4% St. John’s College (NM)
20% Southern Methodist University
2% University of the South
0% Washington and Jefferson College
14% Whitman College
0% York College of Pennsylvania
1 Like
These are great examples. If virtually no one is paying full price, but full price is supposed to represent the real cost of doing business, they need to figure out a different way. That means giving up on the infrastructure arms race, cutting middle management positions, considering dropping majors, and increasing, even if only slightly, class sizes. Otherwise it doesn’t really cost that much or they are going to be insolvent soon.
Well, it doesn’t, though. A high list price simply allows colleges more flexibility to price discriminate.
1 Like
Thanks for the list. Basically, the only college that even reaches 20% in percentage of full-payers is a school that is well-regarded among the country club set in its region.
I expect this pattern to hold everywhere below the Near-Ivy tier except for those schools that attract a high percentage of Northeasterners (who seem to have both the stomach and means to support paying high tuition prices) and/or Internationals.
Other exceptions could be those colleges with low list prices, such as Brigham Young University (49% paying list price, but list price is about $20k for CJCLDS members, $26k for others).
You had me at “2% Hawaii Pacific University”.
I was simply extending @Data10’s thought that if they are non-profits their tuition isn’t supposed to have a cushion. I haven’t verified this. I took it on face value.
One can also name plenty of private colleges that charge high prices where as few students receive aid as Harvard. Some examples are below. All numbers are from IPEDS. Aid refers to grajnts + scholarships. Average net cost is among those receiving grants/scholarships. Note that in this example, all colleges have the same sticker price of approximately $75k, yet Harvard gives aid to the largest portion of students and has by far the lowest average net cost among aid-receiving students.
Harvard – 57% awarded aid, Sticker Price = $74k, Average Net Cost = $15k
Boston College – 44% awarded aid, Sticker Price = $74k, Average Net Cost = $29k
Boston U – 49% awarded aid, Sticker Price = $76k, Average Net Cost = $28k
Bucknell – 51% awarded aid, Sticker Price = $75k, Average Net Cost = $39k
Colorado Col – 47% awarded aid, Sticker Price = $75k, Average Net Cost = $33k
Franklin & Marshall – 55% awarded aid, Sticker Price = $76k, Average Net Cost = $27k
NYU – 46% awarded aid, Sticker Price = $76k, Average Net Cost = $38k
Weslayan U – 41`% awarded aid, Sticker Price = $76k, Average Net Cost = $22k
One common pattern among all of the listed colleges, is they tend to have very wealthy student bodies. When a large portion of students are wealthy, fewer students receive FA. Merit policies are more variable between different colleges. Some colleges including many in UCB’s examples give merit to nearly all students. Other colleges give merit to few students.
My daughter got into Washington & Lee - $81K COA. 88% of people in my income bracket get $38K on average. 88%. I got - nada. Why - they base on average assets. So if you make $150K a year and have more than $300K in assets, the #s go against you. Can someone with $150K in salary and $300K in assets (including home equity) really afford $81K a year. They’re hopeful you’ll go - but if they really want you, they’ll offer merit (they do, not all do) and that’s in part while yields are low. My daughter is going to College of Charleston - at the time it was to be about $30K although since accepting they’ve now “merit’d” her down to $1K OOS so maybe about $20K COA.
There were publics that offered her no aid - Pitt, UF, and UMD. Then there were publics that did offer aid - UGA, U of SC, Arizona, etc. Obviously publics vary in cost - a UVA or W&M are very pricey and rarely give merit. I assume it hits their OOS yields. American offered my daughter $15K. Had it been $25K, I may have let her consider.
The school has to figure out - what’s the sweet point of pricing and maximizing revenue. And obviously they value some more than others…when it comes to full pay.
When you show the net costs, like you do above, they’re not realistic to the full pay parent…I wish I saw those #s.
1 Like
Um, @Data10, did you read what I said?
Here, let me paste it for you again:
“ Thanks for the list. Basically, the only college that even reaches 20% in percentage of full-payers is a school that is well-regarded among the country club set in its region.
I expect this pattern to hold everywhere below the Near-Ivy tier except for those schools that attract a high percentage of Northeasterners (who seem to have both the stomach and means to support paying high tuition prices) and/or Internationals.”
So (even if we don’t say any of them are near-Ivies), which schools in your list are outside the Northeast and also not well-regarded among the well-off in its region?