Should engineers with only a B.S make more than...

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Lets talk about accountants, specifically chartered accountants. They go to school for 4 years(max 5), but they make lot more than engineers.

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<p>I don't know where you're getting this statistic from. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos001.htm#earnings&lt;/a>
<a href="http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:AAKYpsGcwfcJ:www.aicpa.org/nolimits/job/salaries/+CPA+salary&hl=en%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:AAKYpsGcwfcJ:www.aicpa.org/nolimits/job/salaries/+CPA+salary&hl=en&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that being an accountant is a bad thing. But when you say that accountants make "a lot more than engineers", I think you go too far.</p>

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btw, yes doctors do go to school for 8 years, but the last 2 years are clinical practice for which they get paid(although its minimum...close what engineers would get as their starting salary).

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<p>I have also never EVER heard of this. I have never heard of a medical student getting paid for his last 2 years of med-school. </p>

<p>I think what you are talking about is the 3-5 year residency period that happens AFTER medical school. Yes, they are getting paid for that, but only a pittance compared to the massive number of hours they are expected to work. Resident doctors are easily working 80 hours a week and getting paid only about 30-45 k to do it. They have to put up with that for several years before theystart making good money. </p>

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And you said that getting a PhD is harder than med, but that isn't so in Canada. Med is exponentially harder to get into in Canada than it is in the states.

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<p>While I can't speak to the difficulty of getting into medical school in Canada, what I will say is that getting into a US medical school is no walk in the park by any means. I'll put it to you this way. According to AMCAS, about 35,000 people apply to US med-schools every year, for about 17,000 spots. Any way you cut it, that means that more than half of all people who apply don't matriculate anywhere which almost always means that they didn't get in anywhere.</p>

<p>Furthermore, that's only talking about those who actually apply. Plenty of other people don't even apply because they know they won't get in. Let's face it. If you have bad premed grades and a bad MCAT score, you're probably not going to apply because you know you won't get in. </p>

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Ok, so lets say an engineer does more schooling, like get a masters or a PhD...then they should make more, right? No, they still don't even come close to pharmacists/lawyers.

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<p>Yeah, but this is not a fair comparison. Everybody in their right mind knows that you don't get a PhD because you think you are going to make a lot of money by doing so. I think there's universal agreement that a PhD is generally a money-losing proposition. You get a PhD because you really love your field enough to want to make an academic contribution, not because you really think it's going to give you a positive financial return. </p>

<p>But in any case, I'll put it to you this way. If you think that a guy with a PhD in engineering has it bad, what do you have to say for a guy with a PhD in English? Or a PhD in Spanish? Or a PhD in Art History? At least the engineer can take his PhD and go work in industry and make decent money. Not great money, but decent money. The guy with the PhD in English basically has no choice but to work in low-paying academia.</p>

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Again, I realize that engineers don't make a lot, when compared with doctors, lawyers, and pharmacists. But if that's the case, why don't the engineers that are unhappy with their salary go into law or med? The answer: it isn't that easy. Most engineers can't get accepted into med or law.

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<p>I completely agree with this, and I would second it to say that most people in general, not just engineers, can't get into med or law. For a lot of people, engineering really is the best they can do. It sure is more marketable than having an English degree. </p>

<p>However, like Russell7 said, for those people who get engineering degrees and think they can do better, I invite them to go and try. If you really think that pharmacy or law or medicine is better, than why not proceed into those fields, if you can make it? Nobody says that you have to work as an engineer after you get an engineering degree. Engineering therefore serves as an 'insurance policy' if you can't make it in those other professions. </p>

<p>Now it should be said that it is true that engineering grading is difficult and that grading may hurt you in surviving a GPA-intensive admissions process like law school admissions or med-school admissions. True. But that's the price you pay for insurance. There's no such thing in the world as 'free insurance'. I would further point out that I don't think that engineering is the most difficult of all majors. I would argue that physics is probably the most difficult. Mathematics is also no cakewalk. Not only are these people majoring in something extremely difficult, they don't even have the assurance of having a decent-paying job waiting for them upon graduation. Hence I would argue that if anybody is getting a raw deal, it is those guys.</p>

<p>yea, i thought you were comparing the professions in Canada only, cause in US there are a lot of Med schools and Law schools...still hard to get in.</p>

<p>CPA salaries are lower than CA salaries. But, i agree, its not "a lot more", but definitely "more".</p>

<p>I don't agree that PhD is a money losing proposition...may be for engineers, but not for all professions. In Economics, with a PhD you can get a much better starting salary than with a bachelors/masters and its easier to move up the corporate ladder...this is not from any survey, but from a friend who works in that field.</p>

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CPA salaries are lower than CA salaries. But, i agree, its not "a lot more", but definitely "more".

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<p>I don't even know that it's "more". As stipulated by the following link from the AICPA, the CPA only provides a 10% boost on average, which is really not that much, and probably still isn't enough to definitively boost the average accounting salary over the average engineering salary. </p>

<p><a href="http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:AAKYpsGcwfcJ:www.aicpa.org/nolimits/job/salaries/+CPA+salary&hl=en%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:AAKYpsGcwfcJ:www.aicpa.org/nolimits/job/salaries/+CPA+salary&hl=en&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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In Economics, with a PhD you can get a much better starting salary than with a bachelors/masters

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<p>Yeah, but look at what you're talking about. The truth is, a guy with an economics bachelor's/master's makes less than a guy with an engineering bachelor's/master's, so that means that the econ PhD has 'more room to improve'. In other words, the engineering PhD doesn't provide much of a salary boost simply because the engineering bachelor's/master's already pays pretty well. </p>

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...and its easier to move up the corporate ladder...this is not from any survey, but from a friend who works in that field.

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<p>Again, I don't know about this either. PhD's in economics are most suited towards academia or thinktank work, not towards corporate work. Even PhD's in business administration/management are not particularly well suited towards corporate work. </p>

<p>Look, if you want to move up the corporate ladder, the most appropriate degree is the MBA, not a PhD in anything (not even business). Plenty of engineers later get their MBA.</p>

<p>yea, MBA is definitely in my plans...just don't have enough exp yet. I am contemplating of doing a Masters in comp sci/comp eng...but i will open up a new thread for that. I think we have exhausted this one.</p>

<p>i cant believe this thread is still alive</p>

<p>very interesting thread here.... read the whole thing. There is no way an engineer is making over 200 grand. If so, then they are definitely the very small minority. As I read and agree with, engineers salaries tend to top out very early in their careers and it is very unstable. Overall they do not make more than laywers or doctors ... Period.</p>

<p>Da scientist, I think you are making an unfair comparison. Nobody is disputing that engineers overall make less than lawyers or doctors.</p>

<p>But the key to the analysis is that engineering is one of the best careers you can get with just a bachelor's degree. You say that engineering is very unstable, and I would ask, how about the stability of the careers of people with History bachelor's degrees? Or Physics degrees? You may say that engineering salaries top out early in the career, but again, how about the salaries of the guys who majored in History? </p>

<p>So, fine, if you want to say that engineering is very unstable, then fine, but then that must mean that the guys with just bachelor's degree in the liberal arts have REALLY REALLY unstable careers. Sure engineering salaries start out strong but tend not to rise over time, but liberal arts salaries, on average, are NEVER strong in the entire lifetime of the career. </p>

<p>That's why I don't think that we should be invoking law or medicine or anything else that requires a post-graduate degree. After all, a person with an engineering degree can also become a lawyer or a doctor or whatever it is. Just because you have an engineering degree does not mean that you are obligated to work as an engineer.</p>

<p>do you actually think that there are a lot of engineers out there making 200K or more?? I read quite a few comments that were comparing salaries! Yes it is a great career to only have a bachelors(engineers).... but it has its down side too. Comparing the two... take a national survey... I am willing to bet that most would rather be a doctor or lawyer over an engineer hands down. I also don't agree with it being the hardest discipline.... it is one of the hardest.</p>

<p>Remember this was the original statement: Right now egineering is the highest paid degree. These people are making big money. Infact most Engineers with only a B.S make more than people with Ph.Ds in fields like genetics, pharmacology, toxicology, immunology, biochemistry. Hell engineers with B.S are making almost as much as primary care doctors. Do you think engineers deserve the massive pay they seem to get.</p>

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do you actually think that there are a lot of engineers out there making 200K or more

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<p>No. But I would venture to say that the percentage of engineers making more than 200k exceeds the percentage of, say, people with only History bachelor's degrees who make more than 200k. Or people with only a bachelor's degree in any other liberal art, for that matter.</p>

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Yes it is a great career to only have a bachelors(engineers).... but it has its down side too. Comparing the two... take a national survey... I am willing to bet that most would rather be a doctor or lawyer over an engineer hands down

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<p>Sure, it has its downside, just like any other career. And I am also sure that many engineers would rather be doctors or lawyers. But it's not really a fair comparison, because the good engineers CAN be doctors or lawyers. Ask ariesathena. I'm also sure that many liberal arts grads would rather be engineers. And even many doctors or lawyers would rather be, say, successful investment bankers. In fact, Robert Rubin, former Secretary of the Treasury under Clinton, was a former lawyer (graduated from Yale Law after dropping out of Harvard Law), and worked for 2 years for Cleary Gottlieb before jumping to investment banking at Goldman Sachs.</p>

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I also don't agree with it being the hardest discipline.... it is one of the hardest.

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<p>I also agree that engineering is not as hard as, say, physics and perhaps also mathematics. </p>

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Infact most Engineers with only a B.S make more than people with Ph.Ds in fields like genetics, pharmacology, toxicology, immunology, biochemistry. Hell engineers with B.S are making almost as much as primary care doctors. Do you think engineers deserve the massive pay they seem to get.

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<p>Hey, if you want to go down that road, then who says that anybody 'deserves' anything? Do fresh Wall Street investment banking analysts right out of undergrad deserve to make 120k to start (including bonus)? But that's what they got paid last year. Do fresh investment banking associates right out of MBA school deserve to get paid 250k to start? </p>

<p>Check out the pay packages of investment bankers. Notice that these are from 1999-2001. The packages are substantially higher today. For example, a first year associate at the bulge bracket today can reasonably be expected to get $175-$300k right out of MBA school.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.careers-in-finance.com/ibsal.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Which gets back to what I've always said. If you just want money, and that's the only thing you care about, then just go to investment banking.</p>

<p>Oh yes I agree on the investment banking. But just making the point that the original topic was that engineering careers were paying more than lawyers and as much as primary care doctors....which is not true.
The last quote that you commented on was the original topic... not my view point. Also, who cares that engineers can possibly convert to lawyers or doctors.... what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Fact: most of them and most people for that matter can NOT become doctors or lawyers for whatever reasons. Still has nothing to do with the original topic.</p>

<p>(Total aside: Sakky, I dunno about that whole "engineering isn't as hard as physics or math" thing... I routinely compare notes with my friend on the PhD track in superfast optical physics at UC-Boulder (yikes), and I'm perpetually incredibly surprised at how much our courses overlap. We go on road trips together and discussed theoretical mechanics and how much studying it totally bites, and she does just as much eye-glazing as I do when one of us gets too in-depth theoretically in our respective fields. Engineering certainly can pack a punch!)</p>

<p>And yeah, the original poster is kinda off the mark... As much as I love my field, it irks me to see all the law school gals from my high school senior class who started out wanting to major in theater and be actresses and totally washed out of all the really tough classes in high school, and to come back and hear about their salary offers. I totally think we should be paid <em>more</em>. As my steel design prof used to say, "Doctors only kill their clients one at a time."</p>

<p>Kudos to da scientist for pointing out that it <em>totally</em> doesn't matter and is <em>completely</em> beside the point that engineers might be able to <em>become</em> doctors and lawyers, because doctoring and lawyering ain't engineering! =) Bottom line is, I luuurrrve what I do but I think we should all be paid more. Engineering's a high profession, not a trade, and it's high time we start demanding pay that is more respective of the fact that we're professionals, IMHO.</p>

<p>Mos def..... engineers are underpaid in my book. Excellent profession but not compensated correctly. But Hell, that goes for teachers too!!</p>

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, who cares that engineers can possibly convert to lawyers or doctors.... what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Fact: most of them and most people for that matter can NOT become doctors or lawyers for whatever reasons. Still has nothing to do with the original topic.

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<p>Come on. I would say that 99% of all posts made here on CC have nothing to do with whatever was the original topic. Threads always have a tendency to branch off into subtopics. </p>

<p>I make the point that engineers can become doctors or lawyers to show why it is unfair to compare engineers to doctors or lawyers. If you're an engineer and you think that you're getting a raw deal relative to doctors and lawyers, then you can convert. Sure, not all engineers can do that, but heck, that's true of people from any major. </p>

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Total aside: Sakky, I dunno about that whole "engineering isn't as hard as physics or math" thing... I routinely compare notes with my friend on the PhD track in superfast optical physics at UC-Boulder (yikes), and I'm perpetually incredibly surprised at how much our courses overlap. We go on road trips together and discussed theoretical mechanics and how much studying it totally bites, and she does just as much eye-glazing as I do when one of us gets too in-depth theoretically in our respective fields. Engineering certainly can pack a punch!)

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<p>Nobody is saying that engineering can't invoke eye-glazing. However, I would say that in the hierarchy of majors, even at the tech schools like MIT, physics is generally considered to be more difficult than is engineering. Mathematics is too, to some degree (depends on what kind of math). </p>

<p>The issue seems to be that you can get by with just hard work, but not sheer brilliance, more so in engineering than in physics or math. For example, engineering majors have classes that consist mostly of labs and design projects where as long as you work hard and turn in something half-decent, you are going to pass. Maybe not with a good grade, but you are going to pass. Hence, I've seen some of the relatively less-brilliant (but hard-working) engineers take fulfill their engineering elective requirements through lots of these lab and design classes. Not so with physics or math. There is nowhere to hide. Math, in particular, generally breaks down into a whole series of proofs. The nature of solving math proofs is that you either get that flash of insight, or you don't. Hard work isn't going to help you very much. </p>

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is <em>completely</em> beside the point that engineers might be able to <em>become</em> doctors and lawyers, because doctoring and lawyering ain't engineering! =)

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<p>Nobody is saying that this was the original point. However, it is important to deal with those people who shall remain unnamed who continuously tout how medicine and law are better than engineering. My remark to that is simple - engineers can become doctors and lawyers. Hence, what I said is a remark to a remark. If what I am saying is beside the point, then so is the original remark. </p>

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it's high time we start demanding pay that is more respective of the fact that we're professionals, IMHO.

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<p>Personally, I think some of the problem lies with the engineering student themselves, particularly the top ones. While this may sound harsh, from what I have seen, a lot of supposedly "top" engineers don't really understand the opportunities that they have, so they take engineering jobs that underpay them relative to their talent. For example, it's sad when companies are offering MIT chemical engineers only 47k on average, which is 6 k BELOW the national average for chemical engineers. It's even sadder to see those MIT chemical engineers actually take those low offers. </p>

<p><a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/graduation05.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/graduation05.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So as long as companies see that they can get engineers from the top schools to actually take offers that are BELOW the national average, then companies have no incentive to ever make better offers. Why pay more salary to somebody from a lesser school when you can pay less to get the guy from MIT?</p>

<p>engineers do not make as much as doctors or lawyers ....PERIOD.</p>

<p>I don't think anybody (besides maybe the OP) is seriously arguing the point that engineers don't make as much as doctors or lawyers.</p>