Should I Even Bother?

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>I've been spending weeks doing research as well as getting the facts and opinions from everywhere I can. I'm in love with the idea of attending law school for the education, but I'm not sure it's worth the risk because of the economy. </p>

<p>I have a 3.34 cumulative GPA from my undergraduate degree. Unfortunately, it is not from a very reputable school (random state college) and my major was in the performing arts. The LSAC waived my LSAT fees and I can get some application waivers for schools. Unless I score extremely high on the LSAT, I don't think I'll be applying anywhere.</p>

<p>I'm interested in corporate law. I think document review and legal research are thrilling. I would love to carefully draft or contribute to the draft of contracts ensuring the proper terminology is used and that it suits the needs of the requester. I love looking into even the most menial questions and producing great answers. Don't even get me started on reviewing. I'll sit there and tirelessly drill my brain for answers to complex processes I may or may not understand. I get answers. I find "empty holes" where information needs to be (or rules) and fill them in. I'll take unanswered problems home to finish them there. I'm that guy who always finds a loophole or finds a way to fill them. I'm also the sort of person that wants to continue working when I'm out of the office. </p>

<p>As long as I have the bare minimum to survive I'll be happy even if I had to work "long days." I used to hang around my call center job after my shift unpaid 4-6 hours (resulting in a 12-14 hour day) just working on spreadsheets, reading regulations and learning things about each position and assisting anybody who needed help. I love the office atmosphere! Just not when it comes to customer service.</p>

<p>Say I take out $175,000 in student loans (making my total debt about $200,000) and rent a tiny apartment wherever I work for $1,000 and spend no more than $500 a month on food and commuting. I'd have to have a minimum income of $42,000 after taxes to survive. I'd also not be living on my own so there'd be dual income in the house (and no kids.) We don't have high standards. </p>

<p>I never want to buy a house. I will never own a brand new fancy car. I'm content renting small apartments and using public transportation. I don't need to do exciting things or go on wild vacations. I just want a job I enjoy (which I feel may be law) that will pay the bills.</p>

<p>Assuming I get accepted into a decent school, would pursuing a J.D. be justified?</p>

2

<p>No one has a crystal ball, ForkintheRoad…there’s just no way to answer your question. Start with the LSAT and see how you do. Take a look to see if your LSAT+GPA might get you accepted into a state school (which would help with your total cost), or if your LSAT score might be high enough to get you scholarship money somewhere. You could also consider paralegal programs or night law schools where you could hold down a job, as possible alternatives. </p>

<p>Philosophically, I am not a fan of the “I can live in poverty since I don’t care about money” argument. Even if this is true today, will it still be true in 10 years? In 20 years? If you have children and can’t pay for their braces, summer camp, or give them things that they need? If your partner finds your debt too overwhelming, or eventually gets tired of poverty? If you need medical care, and can’t afford it? Money may not be important at 25, but eventually the debt could feel overwhelming.</p>

<p>I also noted that you mentioned corporate law, although that might not be an option even at $42,000. Could you work for a sole practitioner doing auto accidents, writing wills out of a form-book and handling house closings? Could you see yourself as a public defender in a poor or rural community, where there are few other attorneys or professionals? Could you see yourself selling insurance, or working for a legal publisher if you couldn’t find a legal job? Since we don’t have a crystal ball, it’s hard to predict where you might actually find a job in the future. Law students who claim they want to practice a particular type of law are frequently disappointed, and find themselves practicing in areas they never anticipated. Often it’s just about finding a job…any job.</p>

<p>To be fair, you might find yourself in that top percentile of a lower tier school who has job opportunities. You might find the perfect job, or you may be in that pool of law school grads who struggle to find any job. You might use the three years of law school to successfully network and job hunt. </p>

<p>I wish I could be more encouraging. My concern is that you might fall into that category of “graduating with a performance arts degree…now what do I do?” Law school is so miserable, expensive, and has such poor job prospects for most law students that in my personal view it’s only suitable for individuals who have the kind of overwhelming commitment to the practice of law that they’re willing to roll the dice NO MATTER WHAT.</p>

<p>See how you do on the LSAT, and what your choices are. I’d also recommend working for a year, and testing your interest in law school again in a year or two. That could let you pay down some of your undergrad debt, and maybe even save some money for law school. Who knows - prospects for law grads might even be better.</p>

3

<p>I’m not in school. I graduated a while back. I’ve been (trying) to find work since with some mediocre success. Nothing really beyond retail though. </p>

<p>My degree couldn’t be worse than a law degree. With my degree, I’ve struggle to get employed in retail for the past 2 years. My highest earnings has been $5,000 in a tax year because the jobs I get hired for have sporadic hours with policies saying you can’t take employment elsewhere. A J.D. couldn’t possibly leave me worse off.</p>

<p>Also, I’m fine with the idea of job diversity. As far as the course of study goes, I’d want to get educated on business law. For work, I wouldn’t mind having to litigate or draft wills in small law.</p>

<p>I care about money, don’t get me wrong. I just don’t care about luxury. I grew up in a poor household that couldn’t afford things like braces or summer camp and it was fine.</p>

4

<p>The legal profession in the U.S. will never be what is was. At lot of the work is outsourced to India where it is performed at $25/hour instead of $300/hr.
[U.S&lt;/a&gt;. Legal Work Booms in India - Washington Post](<a href=“http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2008-05-11/world/36923616_1_legal-work-law-firms-corporate-law]U.S”>http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2008-05-11/world/36923616_1_legal-work-law-firms-corporate-law)

</p>

<p>Here is more gloom and doom:
[The</a> Jobs Crisis at Our Best Law Schools Is Much, Much Worse Than You Think - Jordan Weissmann - The Atlantic](<a href=“http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-jobs-crisis-at-our-best-law-schools-is-much-much-worse-than-you-think/274795/]The”>http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/04/the-jobs-crisis-at-our-best-law-schools-is-much-much-worse-than-you-think/274795/)</p>

<p>Even Canada is outsourcing legal work to India:
[Some</a> Toronto law firms and in-house lawyers send work to India | Toronto Star](<a href=“http://www.thestar.com/business/personal_finance/2013/05/13/some_toronto_law_firms_and_inhouse_lawyers_send_work_to_india.html]Some”>http://www.thestar.com/business/personal_finance/2013/05/13/some_toronto_law_firms_and_inhouse_lawyers_send_work_to_india.html)</p>

<p>

If you take on 200k in debt for law school and don’t get a job, you can be a lot worse off than you are now.</p>

5

<p>I’d work for $25 an hour full time if it meant I could have a life like this guy:</p>

<p>[First-Year</a> Associate Hates His Job - Business Insider](<a href=“http://www.businessinsider.com/first-year-associate-hates-his-job-2012-11]First-Year”>First-Year Associate Hates His Job)</p>

6

<p>At 25 bucks an hour, it will be hard to repay 200k in loans. You can kiss away the ability to buy a car, buy a house and otherwise get a life.</p>

7

<p>$25 an hour will allow me to rent a snug one person apartment and make the minimum payments on loans while utilizing public transit. I don’t plan to own a car or house.</p>

8

<p>ForkInThe Road, you write well, and you are enthusiastic about spreadsheets and other detail-oriented tasks. It surprises me that your highest earnings have only been $5,000 in a tax year - is that number in post 3 correct, or was there a typo? </p>

<p>Taking the LSAT can’t hurt you, but deciding to take on so much additional debt can. If you blow the LSAT out of the water, you might get into a T14 law school with a 3.34 GPA. Or you might get into the top law school in your state or region with significant merit aid. Your major won’t matter. Then you’ll have to make a careful choice about whether to enroll. Look very closely at the employment statistics for any schools where you’re accepted.</p>

<p>I think you can find the office environment you’re looking for without taking out an additional $175,000 in loans. I don’t know what the employment picture for paralegals is these days, but the additional training won’t cost you anything like six figures, and much of the work is what you say you want to do in your first post.</p>

9

<p>That was correct. $5,000 was the most I’ve earned in a year. I’ve only held short hour retail positions for the most part and my Bachelor’s degree is from a poor college in a bad major. I made lots of great choices, clearly. :D</p>

<p>I’ve been doing a lot of research on it. It’s about even. Between people teaching law, working law and learning law (as well as talking about law statistics, like here) about 50% of the responses are a solid “no,” whereas the other half say I’d be fine.</p>

<p>I’ve also heard rumblings that J.D.'s are doing the paralegal work these days.</p>

10

<p>I also find the low income a year or two out of school to be troubling. Something appears to be wrong, since my kids have made more money in retail in our mid-Atlantic state as students working part-time. </p>

<p>Sometimes all it takes is being open-minded about a first job, even if it isn’t the dream job. My roommate in college majored in “family relations.” I have no idea what that is, but that room-mate is now a high-level executive for a Fortune 50 traveling the world. My room-mate’s first job was as a secretary in a warehouse…which led to a a career in “supply chain management.” </p>

<p>Whatever problems may be holding you back from finding a starter-job with more hours (whether in retail, health-care, manufacturing, the military, or something else), could be carried forward to your interviewing after graduation from law school…except then you’d also be carrying a lot more debt. </p>

<p>If your current student loans are not in good status, this might affect your ability to pile on additional debt too. I’ wouldn’t count anyone who tells you to go to law school who is a current or prospective law student. Most law students are delusional about their own chances of employment (they’ll all be the exception, duh). Likewise, I wouldn’t count any law professors on the theory that they have a conflict of interest in keeping those students enrolling. If you take law students and law professors out of your survey, is it still 50-50? I’m a 35+ year lawyer, BTW, and my kid graduated from law school last May. My kid asked to be counted on the side of “don’t go.” </p>

<p>I just shook my head at that article that you posted. I don’t know any corporate lawyer who can roll into the office after 9:00 am, and “doc review” with an hourly rate is usually a temp position. You could get a lot more interesting work as a paralegal. </p>

<p>My sympathies on your situation, and I hope that your future becomes brighter. Your first step will be to take the LSAT and see if law school is even feasible. While you’re looking into law school, another opportunity may present itself too. Good luck, and hope the pieces fall into place for you soon.</p>

11

<p>Instead of going to law school, have you thought about getting a job as a paralegal or a contracts manager? Both can make very nice money, and seem to fit the job description you mentioned (without sticking around and working for free). Getting your foot in the door without any work experience may be tough, but if you are dedicated, you will find a way.</p>

12

<p>All of this is speculation without an LSAT score. With a 3.34 you will need an LSAT at least in the 170s. At the very least go do a practice LSAT under real conditions. If you score 158 or better, then come back. If you don’t, chances are you won’t ultimately be able to score high enough and you should cut your losses.</p>

13

<p>The main issue with the jobs I’ve held is they either have extremely varying schedules or “conflict of interest” policies that prevent me from doing anything other than 1 short hour job at a time. The fact that I’ve never had an employer that gives me my schedule far enough in advance to tell another employer my available hours is really hindering. </p>

<p>It took me almost a year to get employed at a retail outlet after college, and the hiring manager’s exact words during training were “you cannot get another job with any stores we consider competition, which also includes mall stores.” When we started asking about exclusions, she narrowed it down to gas stations and fast food. It’s hard to get a second job when you have to tell the prospective employer “I only get my schedule on a weekly basis the day before the week starts and the hours vary between 8AM and 11PM and can be any day of the week.” Negotiating hours? The retailer in question denied hourly requirements. I knew some people that could not do certain hours due to documented medical conditions but they didn’t care. Getting a job there meant you were either forced to be free 7 days a week between 8AM and 11PM or you’d be fired after a few months. High school student? College student? They wouldn’t care about your schedule. They scheduled my girlfriend’s sister DURING HIGH SCHOOL CLASS HOURS. Lovely business, yes? :)</p>

<p>Anyway, back to the legal direction. I want to be in a position that gives me the opportunity to be a consultant as well as practice on my own given I create the opportunity. I went through the 2007 LSAT provided on LSAC to see how well I’d respond at this point. I’ve only been doing a few problems here and there between job applications, cooking, errands and so forth. So far I’ve yet to be stumped or answer incorrectly. If the LSAT is logic puzzles and writing, I can’t see myself getting a low score (I test incredibly well.)</p>

<p>Also, sorry for the sloppy word soup and disorganization in my posts. I haven’t been sleeping and my keyboard is missing half its buttons so I’m sort of in “type first think later” mode right now. Normally I’m much more put together. :/</p>

14

<p>I would really suggest thinking twice about taking out an additional $175k in debt. Is there a state school you could apply to? Or you could look into merit aid if you do really well on your LSAT.</p>

<p>Given your interests, I agree that there may be jobs out there that will satisfy you without having to put yourself in a hole financially.</p>

<p>Best of luck with whatever you decide.</p>

15

<p>You can be very, very worse off after getting a JD. Very. </p>

<p>If you want to draft wills and open up your own practice, and do not care where you live, then go on a scholarship to a school in an area with a (relative) paucity of lawyers. </p>

<p>Do not pay $175,000, especially if you are already having trouble getting retail jobs. law school is not worth that money, unless HYS.</p>

<p>Any employer who will pay you enough to service that debt, even on pauper’s lifestyle, will ask about what you did between college and law school. </p>

<p>Sign up with a temp agency. They might find work that pays $10 an hour, but it will pay $10/hour for forty hours a week. See if you can grow into a job.</p>

<p>SallyAWP has good advice. Also, consider becoming an accountant or such - if you don’t work out well in retail but love numbers, details, etc, it may be due to your own personality type.</p>

16

<p>“I’ve also heard rumblings that J.D.'s are doing the paralegal work these days.”</p>

<p>Sometimes, and when they do, it is for a paralegal salary with no chance of promotion to attorney. Many openings for paralegals explicitly prohibit attorneys.</p>

<p>The legal field is a gigantic mess right now, and will be for several years.</p>

17

<p>I’ve tried several temp agencies. The ones in my area are tapped out and haven’t had any jobs to offer that didn’t require specialized training or a very specific Bachelor’s.</p>

<p>I’m getting mixed signals on alternate options as well. I’ve been told Accounting is just as bad an option as Law, and that graduates with 4.0’s from a Tier 1 feeder school with CPA’s are in the same boat as newly minted J.D.'s.</p>

<p>It’s like everybody’s claiming “the grass is greener” for every pick.</p>

<p>Regardless, I’m thankful for everybody’s input while I carefully craft my future plans.</p>

18

<p>That’s not accurate: [Need</a> a job? Majoring in accounting might be the best bet | Deseret News](<a href=“http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865570070/Need-a-job-Majoring-in-accounting-might-be-the-best-bet.html?pg=all]Need”>http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865570070/Need-a-job-Majoring-in-accounting-might-be-the-best-bet.html?pg=all)</p>

<p>Check put monster or another job search site for openings in accounting versus law.</p>

19

<p>Before you spend too much time worrying about law school, take the LSAT. There is no way to estimate where you’ll get in without it. And pedigree trumps all in law, so there’s no way to make an assessment as to whether or not attending law school would be worth the investment.</p>