Should I submit an SAT of 1510?

Applying to College
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101

Congratulations! You have some excellent options no matter how the rest pan out.

While it is obviously a terrific result, I don’t think the Georgia Tech acceptance alters the calculation. If anything, it should reinforce the notion that the rest of your application is very strong; as you noted, there are plenty of applicants with significantly higher scores who weren’t accepted.

As for how to move forward, it is still very likely that your college counsellors in Bombay have the best information regarding the overall strength of the rest of your application, and especially how your accomplishments compare to other Harvard/JH applicants from Bombay. At the very least, they have more complete information than does anyone here, and their advice seems sound and nuanced; I’d suggest you continue to listen to them. So far it seems to be working out in your favor. I’d consult with them prior changing course at this point.

As for Harvard and Johns Hopkins in particular, both have stated that applying test optional will not disadvantage applicants, and Harvard recently committed to remaining TO at least through the class of 2030, which may signal that they are confident they can identify exceptional students without reliance on test scores. From Harvard’s Dean of Admissions:

“Students who do not submit standardized test scores will not be disadvantaged in their application process,” William Fitzsimmons, the dean of admissions and financial aid, said in a statement. He encouraged students to submit “whatever materials they believe would convey their accomplishments in secondary school and their promise for the future."

Good luck with whatever you decide and, again, congratulations on your fantastic results thus far!

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102

OP got rejected from Duke ED where he didn’t send in the scores, every other place he’s sent in, he’s gotten in.

“At the very least, they have more complete information than does anyone here, and their advice seems sound and nuanced; I’d suggest you continue to listen to them.”

That doesn’t mean they can’t make mistakes, which they clearly did with Duke. If these were high school counselors I could see your point, but they’re outside private counselors.

Anyway I’d send them to both but if you’re really on the fence, maybe send it to JHU, who will want to see it, and not Harvard. The more stem-oriented the college, the more they want to see your scores. Good luck, you’ve done great so far!

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One reason I think that the OP’s counselors may know what they are doing is that they seem to understand that these aren’t one-size-fits-all decisions. All of the schools to which the OP has been admitted are great, but they really aren’t comparable to Duke when it comes to selectivity. While it is hard to fathom, a 1510 SAT score can be an asset at one school yet a liability at another.

In order for you to know it was “clearly” a mistake, you’d have to know with certainty that the OP would have been admitted had the OP submitted test scores. You don’t. The OP’s odds of admission would have been extremely long had the OP submitted a 1560+ score, and much longer still had OP submitted the 1510.

An experienced counselor in Bombay doesn’t have to be a “high school counselor” to have much better information than we do regarding the OP’s qualifications relative to the application pool of similarly situated applicants to these particular schools.

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104

From the same people who claim that there is no disadvantage to applying TO:

“Harvard does not offer an advantage to students who apply early. Higher Restrictive Early Action acceptance rates reflect the remarkable strength of Restrictive Early Action pools. For any individual student, the final decision will be the same whether the student applies Restrictive Early Action or Regular Decision.” First-Year Applicants | Harvard

The data analysis from the Harvard litigation disproved this as there was a clear advantage after controlling for a variety of factors. This statement has long been on the Harvard Admissions website, including the period of the admissions cycles in the litigation.

What school if they decide to go TO is going to advertise that “anyone applying TO will be at a disadvantage”? Of course not because they would be admitting that it really isn’t TO. Even if the policy is 100% sincere, the fact is AO’s are humans. When you have an applicant who otherwise has high academic achievement from an area with plenty of testing availability and access to test prep, it is very possible that a conclusion will be drawn consciously or subconsciously. Remember the almost universal advice from counselors when there was an optional SAT2? Better have those in if you were from an affluent/ rigorous HS background with easy access to testing.

Also in OP’s case, there are 24 students from India currently at Harvard College (I am assuming that OP is not a US citizen or permanent resident). This implies there are at most 7-8 from India admitted each year. The selectivity level is even further off the charts. Why create any chance of doubt by not submitting a 1510, which is not going to disqualify OP. At 1510, OP ticks off one of the Academic 2 criteria (at least in the past). OP has a fine record and has received some great results, but is not likely an Academic 1 with or without test results given the Duke results. The 1510 will not ensure anything, but may dispel a possible area of doubt.

In any event, congrats OP. You have great choices reflective of your accomplishments. Harvard is a total longshot for anyone other than those strongly hooked. Whether you submit or don’t submit is unlikely to make any difference.

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105

Yeah I realise Harvard chances are pretty slim. I don’t really expect much from it; I only applied since I’d gotten into a few good schools already. I know a 1510 isn’t anywhere over the top for a Harvard applicant but if it doesn’t make things worse it might be worth a shot. I’ll bring it up with my counsellor again.

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Yes isnt it crazy when someone questions submitting a 1510?

What we all need to realize is the ACT and SAT reported percentiles are no longer 100% valid with test optional. Only those with super high scores will submit ( like the OP who questions a 1510 who may or may not submit) driving the accepted average up ( no one knows the scores of the TO admitted students who are obviously lower).

So if everyone for example with a 33 ACT which is 25% for these highly competitive schools decides to go TO and not submit scores then only those with 34 or above submit and the 25% becomes 34, and 50-75% becomes 35, and top 25% is 36. So next year people will question a 34 and not submit that score…etc.

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107

Which is why in another thread I questioned if it is even worth it to take the test, and especially to spend time and money on test prep. This thread makes me think not. A 1510 is fantastic and when this OP with an exceptional record is questioning submitting I wonder if the test is playing any role anymore.

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I’m glad you are going to discuss it with your counselor rather than simply following the advice offered here. Like the other posters, I don’t know for sure how Harvard views the test scores of Indian applicants, but I am basing my comments on real advice given by experienced college counselors at extremely competitive domestic high schools which send a relatively high number of kids to schools like Harvard. From what I can tell based on this limited perspective, it may be that a 740 in Math “makes things worse.”

If you were a student at one of the domestic schools with which I am familiar, with your same or similar qualifications, you almost certainly would be advised to apply test optional to schools like Harvard and probably even Johns Hopkins. This is because:

  1. Unlike MIT, Harvard and Johns Hopkins seem willing to consider other indicia of academic accomplishment and potential, absent test scores.
  2. It seems like your other qualifications are impressive and more than enough to establish that you are a well qualified academically for either school.
  3. Your test scores, especially your math score, would pale in comparison to the unhooked students from these schools who have historically had a relatively strong chance of admission to such schools. A 740 math is below the 25% percentile at Harvard, and the unhooked applicants from these schools with a chance of admission are generally near or above 75%.

In other words, unhooked STEM students admitted to schools like these from highly competitive schools haven’t submitted 740 Math scores. They have either submitted perfect or near perfect Math scores, or they have applied TO and relied on the overwhelming strength of the rest of their application. Those who submit 740 math scores are rejected. I expect a 740 Math might even be more detrimental for a STEM applicant from India, given the extreme competitiveness of that pool.

Anyway, take that all with a grain of salt, because it might work differently for Indian applicants. So you might consider asking your counselor these questions:

  • Historically, does Harvard ever admit potential STEM students from India with 740 Math SAT scores? If so, under what circumstances?
  • Were it not for TO, would the counselor encourage or advise you to apply to Harvard, or would the counselor advise you that you were wasting your time and money?
  • Are Indian applicants who apply TO ever admitted to Harvard, Johns Hopkins, or similar schools? (In other words, is TO really an option for STEM applicants from India?)

@BKSquared If the OP’s counselor has historical data indicating that, absent extraordinary circumstances, unhooked STEM applicants from India are never admitted to these schools with 740 Math SAT scores, would you still advise the OP to submit?

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109

Amazing how the intent of TO was to allow those students at least recently affected by the pandemic and not being able to test, an equal playing field with those who could test…but it quickly evolved into am I good enough with these scores. Maybe I shouldn’t submit them. If testing were required they would have no choice and would live with the consequences or benefits of your scores. But now some also simply decide not to test ( another unintended consequence of TO) even it they can.

Consistency either requiring all scores to be submitted by the testing service or not accepting any scores is the only fair way to do this.

This admission process is so much chance and gamesmanship by universities, consultants, etc. Now here’s some gamesmanship for students to think about. Test or Not. Submit score or not.

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740 is at the 25th Math percentile in the 2020-2021 CDS. A 770 is between the 50th and 75th EBRW (75th at 780); 750 was the 25th percentile for 2019-2020, but the EBRW 75th percentile was 770. For 2018-2019 the 25th percentile was again 740. One more year back it was 730.

“In other words, unhooked STEM students admitted to schools like these from highly competitive schools haven’t submitted 740 Math scores.” Hold on, Harvard has only been TO with results for 1 admission cycle, 2020. It is TO this year but we only have REA results. I know it is not true that a 740 is a rejection. If we are relying on personal anecdotes, my son’s best friend, an unhooked white male in a magnet IB program school (premed track), was accepted EA with a mid 1400 SAT. I know his stats because I helped the kid with his app.

If the GC has historical data as you suggest, of course I would agree not to submit scores, but we do not know that. I could equally ask if historically no TO students ever got in from India as you posited in your third bullet point, would you still suggest TO?

Unless data on TO accepted students (admit rate by GPA and other evaluated criteria are disclosed) vs test submitters, this is all opinion. Given the short history of TO at Harvard, it is not as if any GC will have much supporting data on whether to submit scores or not when an applicant is likely at or slightly above the 50th percentile in the aggregate but at the 25th percentile on one test.

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You are assuming that colleges made the decision to continue TO for the good of applicants. That’s not the case at all. They want more applications and lower acceptance rates.

You also throw around “fair” like someone who has all the privilege in the world. Is it fair that some schools are underfunded and under-resourced, but their students have to compete on the same playing field? Is it fair that some kids have access to individualized SAT prep and private college counselors while others have one guidance counselor who handles 400 students? Is it fair that some schools offer 25 AP courses end others offer none?

There is nothing fair about our educational system. Although it benefits the schools, test optional can also help to bring a some equity to the process for certain students.

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112

I’ll take your word for it regarding the most recent CDS, but whether a 740 Math is 25% or just below the point remains the same. More so for International students from an extremely competitive demographic like Bombay.

As for your son’s friend, I’ll take your word for that too. But rather than offering a single anecdote, I was trying to convey the advice of experienced college counselors at particularly competitive high schools regarding tippy-top colleges. At the school with which I am most familiar, the counselors have extensive databases going back many years for thousands of highly qualified applicants (around 50 applicants per year to Harvard, of whom around 10 per year are usually accepted). While this pool is obviously not nearly as competitive as the OP’s pool, and while it may not apply to your son’s friend, I nonetheless I thought it might be helpful to the OP.

Rather than bicker, shouldn’t we be trying to help the OP?

It seems a pretty safe bet that his college counselors working in Bombay with applicants to top US colleges have much, much better information regarding the OP’s chances to these schools than we do. I can’t figure out why others are so quick to dismiss the counselors’ informed advice in favor of opinions which don’t seem to be at all based on the OP’s actual circumstances.

That’s why I suggested OP ask the question. But I don’t believe I’ve suggested TO. Rather, I’ve recommended he listen to his counselor because the counselor has better information regarding these issues than we do.

Why limit the data to last cycle? If 740 Math for unhooked STEM applicants from India wasn’t competitive when scores were required, what makes you think it would suddenly be competitive now that reporting is optional?

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Agree, the goal is to help the OP, which I am trying to do based on my own experience and the opinions I have formed over the years as an HYPS interviewer with access to AO’s, steering 2 kids into T20’s and helping a bunch of friends’ kids informally. The OP asked for opinions on this thread, so he is seeking views outside of his GC. We actually don’t know the quality of his GC unless I missed it somewhere in this long thread but it doesn’t matter since he wants other input.

I point to a couple of reasons why I think he should submit with the limited information we have.

  • Harvard at least in the past has set as an Academic 2 criteria that it is looking for scores in the mid to high 700’s. This was discovered in the ongoing litigation. Most accepted students come from this group as Academic 1’s are very rare. I would think a 740/770 checks this particular box.

  • The AO’s of any college are well aware that the difference between a 740 and a 760 is in the nature of 2 questions out of 58. Beyond some threshold, 10, 20 even 30 or more combined points is not going to be the difference maker. IMO the absence of checking off a threshold creates more uncertainty than checking the box. The question is if a 740 in Math is below some threshold in isolation. Agree there is no clear cut answer here.

  • OP did not get into Duke ED. 855/4,015 students were admitted, a 21% admissions rate. Excluding the 42 Questbridge matches, the rate was 20.5%. Not sure how ED works with athletes for Duke since athletes sign NLI’s, but assume the ED’s includes 200 recruits (there are about 800 varsity athletes at any time across the 4 classes https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/duke-university/student-life/sports/#:~:text=Duke%20University%20Sports-Related%20Financial,451%20men%20and%20353%20women. ), the ED rate would be 16.2%. I think it is a fair statement to say that getting into Harvard is more selective than Duke, now throw in the ED bump. Of course OP could have been rejected at Duke submitting scores, but we know not submitting scores did not work. While still a long shot, why not try a different strategy vs one that we know did not work. On the other hand if OP had submitted and got rejected at Duke, I probably would advise OP to go TO.

BTW, you don’t need to take my word on the CDS data. That is easily googled. https://oir.harvard.edu/common-data-set

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114

That’s how I looked it as well, and that potentially the rest of the application may not be able to make up for the lack of test scores.

“In other words, unhooked STEM students admitted to schools like these from highly competitive schools haven’t submitted 740 Math scores. Those who submit 740 math scores are rejected. I expect a 740 Math might even be more detrimental for a STEM applicant from India, given the extreme competitiveness of that pool.”

Ok but that’s only one or two years of information from your experience as TO has only been around since Covid. There’s no way to say that categorically a 740 Math gets rejected. GT has similar Math 25/75. I do think adcoms differentiate between 790 and 800 but not really 740 and 770, and not submitting again, would indicate to AOs a below 700 score.

“I’m glad you are going to discuss it with your counselor rather than simply following the advice offered here.”

The OP posted here to get a second opinion on advice given by the private (not HS) counselors. We should find out why he posted here, if he had this great, nuanced advice already.

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If you have “access to AO’s” at Harvard then perhaps you should ask them how hard it is to get accepted as a STEM applicant from India with a 740 Math score? How many out of the last 100 such unhooked acceptances of STEM applicants from India had SAT math scores of 740 or below?

While you are at it, perhaps you should ask Harvard’s AO’s whether submitting tests is really “optional” for STEM applicants for India. Will otherwise outstanding applicants be seriously considered if they do not submit tests scores?

Those are the key questions, all the rest is just posturing.

  • If it next to impossible for a STEM applicant from India to get accepted with a 740 math score, then why should OP submit a 740 Math score if OP knows that strategy won’t work?
  • If optional doesn’t really mean optional, then it would be a waste to submit TO, and depending on the answers to the above questions it may be a waste to apply at all.
  • But, if Harvard rarely if ever accepts STEM applicants from India with math scores of 740 or lower, and if Harvard will seriously consider outstanding applications even absent test scores, then TO might make sense, depending on the strength of the rest of the application.

If you can’t supply this information through your access to Harvard’s AO’s, then OP’s college counselor is better suited to address these questions than we are.

As for the rest, I’m not sure it matters, but because it keeps coming up I’ll address it . . .

  • The student’s description of his academic and STEM related accomplishments strongly suggest that he would be in the Academic 2 range with or without the test score. His test scores seem like the weakest part of his academic application.
  • We aren’t talking about the difference between a 740 and a 760 in Math. The OP’s 740 will be viewed in comparison to hundreds of Indian STEM applicants with perfect or near perfect Math scores. We are talking 790s and 800s, not 740s 0r 760s.
  • OP’s rejection at Duke doesn’t change the calculation at all, because the calculation hinges on his chance of admission by submitting. I could be (and likely is) that OP had next to no chance of admission with a 740 Math at either school. Like with Harvard, it seems extraordinarily unlikely that a STEM applicant from Bombay, India would be admitted at Duke with a 740 Math score; Duke’s mid 50% for math scores is 750-800, and the International pool of Indian STEM applicants is likely much more competitive than that. The uncertainty lies in whether or not OP has a chance applying TO. Duke rejected OP, but Harvard makes its own decisions.

And I agree that the OP is here seeking advice, but I don’t feel like this justifies making recommendations without some understanding of the facts on which the OP’s decision hinges. Hopefully if nothing else this thread has given the OP a better idea of the factors that go the decision of whether or not to apply TO.

The information from before TO is still on point regarding the odds of admission for kids who submit test scores. If a STEM applicant from India had next to no chance of admission with a 740 test score before TO, then it is extremely likely that a student submitting a 740 test score now will still have next to no chance of admission.

To put it in terms similar to yours, why would a STEM applicant from Bombay submit a 740 Math score if he knows that won’t work?

Seems like he was seeking further advice and perhaps reassurance, and I hope he is sitting back and enjoying the back and forth.

I hope he realizes by now that his counselor may have better information regarding whether a STEM applicant from Bombay who submits a 740 Math score has any realistic chance of admission at Harvard. And if not, whether it makes sense to take a flyer on test optional based on the strength of the rest of his application

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Wow, I thought we were trying to help the OP. I really don’t appreciate the snide passive aggressive nature of your posts, ones bordering on questioning my integrity, including your prior post where “you will take my word for it” without even checking the CDS yourself. FWIW, I am not a Harvard alum, but one from Yale who has been interviewing for more than 25 years. After this admissions cycle I would be happy to talk to the people in the Yale AO about close cases like this on whether to submit or not. They may or not give me a definitive answer. I am sure they will say that they mean what they say for TO, they cannot say anything otherwise.

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We’re all human here, as are the AOs. How could test optional be truly optional when essentially nothing in college admissions (or employment later on) is optional. If you don’t submit a score (and I would have submitted the 740 to Duke), the presumption is that it is mediocre at best. Is a 740 really mediocre? What as the SAT come to in the past 25 years??!!

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I am sorry if I wasn’t clear, but there was no ill intent. If you potentially had access to information that could have answered the OP’s question, then that would have been very helpful to the OP. And when I said I “take your word for it”, it means nothing other I am accepting your representations as true. If I doubted your integrity I would have looked up the current 25% cutoff on the CDS form.

Perhaps it would be helpful to the OP if we focus on points where we agree:

  • As I believe you agreed above, OP should not submit a score if the historical data indicates that, absent extraordinary circumstances, STEM applicants from India who submit 740 Math scores are routinely rejected.
  • As I agreed above, OP should not submit test optional if Harvard will not seriously consider otherwise outstanding STEM applicants from India who do not submit test scores.

IMO, you and I don’t really have the information necessary to answer either one of these inquiries. Am I mistaken in assuming that we agree on this, as well?

This sounds like you are questioning their integrity? Or am I misreading that?

119

I was going to post a note and ask that you all play nice in the sandbox (which I hope users will take to heart). But then I looked at the thread title, then looked at the calendar, and realized further discussion is moot. OP has received enough feedback to determine if they want to submit scores. And that’s without addressing whether just because one can do something (in this case suutting scores a month late), that they should do something. Closing.

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