<p>"Gee, anyone remember George M. Cohan? About as Irish as they came, but because of the prejudices mentioned in this thread, faced significant anti-Semitism and blacklisting."</p>
<p>Gee, I'd list all the Jewish people with Jewish last names, but that would be a tremendously long post. How is it anti-semetic to say people with last names like "Goldberg" and "Silverstein" are USUALLY (I'd didn't say all) Jewish? </p>
<p>When I tell people my last name, they assume I'm British. Then I correct them and say I'm German-Irish. Some people then think I'm Catholic because I'm Irish. Again, I'm atypical since I'm Protestant. These misconceptions never bother me though. I accept the fact that most people with my last name are British and most Irish people are Roman Catholic. Sure I break the usual mold, as I'm sure others do. Nonetheless, most people with my last name are British, most Irish people are Catholic, and most people with names like Cohen, Silverstein, Goldberg, Shapiro, Rosenberg, etc. are Jewish.</p>
<p>Um, Hepstar. Here's what I think is happening here on this thread. A young person worried and wanted feedback on whether it was wise/safe/advisable to include mention of her Jewish identity on an admissions ap.
Then, 3 (of her peers) chimed in with ignorant ideas about how you can tell if someone's Jewish (based on their last name) or "get away with" blending in because of being "half-Jewish'. Including some poorly informed comments about last names as identifiers.
Then some serious Jewish adults, including myself, citygirlsmom and Chedva, chose to engage and reasssure the OP that it was okay to be who she is on her colege ap. This is a very serious subject of conversation for Jewish people.
You kind of picked up on the last-name issue, perhaps because it hits home with you given the unusual German-Irish Protestant background which is often misunderstood b/c you have a British name. Plus some discussion of probability words and the meaning of "usually" etc.
I feel that the most important thing about this thread is that the OP know she can be who she is and apply with full heart to any college she wishes.
So, no, please don't distract by offering to list all the Jewish last names in the world. We have important things to talk about.</p>
<p>I'll probably be kicked for saying this, but I think only a Jew can understand what it means to be a Jew. Sort of assimilated, just like everyone else, white so you don't stand out, maybe a Jewish last name/maybe not -- and then, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, springs the anti-Semitism.</p>
<p>Question to the Jews reading this thread: Do you feel yourself an American first, or a Jew first? If this country turned (or became much more) anti-Semitic, would you leave?</p>
<p>I think it's silly to say that Jews are only a religious not also an ethnic group. I'm a Russian immigrant Jew with a German last name and although I always check the "white" box, I am hardly so. Traditionally Jews marry other Jews, in effect creating almost a different race entirely. I'm one guilty of assuming people are Jews by their last names or the way they look. I don't think it is a big deal.</p>
<p>Do you feel yourself an American first, or a Jew first? If this country turned (or became much more) anti-Semitic, would you leave?</p>
<p>I consider myself an American first. Being a Jew is more an ancestral thing to me than my identity. If this country turned anti-Semitic, yes I would leave, likely to Israel.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Do you feel yourself an American first, or a Jew first?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This is not a simple question to answer. It assumes that the two identities cannot co-exist comfortably, and that one must be "first". Post-JFK, do Catholics consider themselves Americans first, or Catholics first? Are Baptists Americans first, or Baptists first? Are Irish-Americans Americans first, or Irish first? The question implies not only that Judaism is more than a religion, but that it is also a political affiliation in the same way as national identity is. Is there any reason that I cannot be equally loyal to America, to my God, and to the Jewish People?</p>
<p>Answering the question also depends in large respects to the prevailing political climate. In the 1930's, Germany's Jews considered themselves Germans first, and being Jewish was completely secondary. That changed dramatically and these Jews were astounded and confused suddenly to find themselves adrift. While someone on this board believes that we "left that behind" with Hitler, I and most Jews that I know cannot be nearly as sanguine. That's why we watch carefully for any signs of the erosion of our right to be both Americans and Jews. You all know the story of the lobster - when put in a pot of warm water which slowly heats up, the lobster never notices the changes until it's dead. German Jews were those lobsters; American Jews have learned that lesson and are more vigilant.</p>
<p>That being said, to answer the question - As long as America agrees that I am an American, I am one - happy and proud, the child of immigrants (my parents, not my ancestors), patriotic, who does not take America and its blessings for granted. I am also a Jew, which, in the America that I love, is not in conflict. If the country turned more anti-Semitic (and to keep this thread less political, I will accept the "if"), I would first try to reverse the trend, and then, once America makes the decision that I cannot be both American and Jewish, I would do what was necessary to ensure my survival and the survival of my family and my people. Would I leave? Without the US, Israel may not exist. I don't know - if this bastion of civil rights and liberties turned against the Jewish people, where would we go?</p>
<p>My parents immigrated from India, I was born & brought up in the USA. I think I'd like to identify myself as both American and Indian. If I am asked a similar question ("American first or Indian first") I'd say that both identities are equally important to me. Thinking more about this, I'd really like to have citizenships and residency permits in multiple countries (USA, INDIA, CHINA, UK, etc) so that I can (1) pursue a global career (2) live whereever I feel most comfortable at any given time. That is what freedom means to me.</p>
<p>beantowngal,
Your post is so interesting because it demonstrates what a changing world we live in. Jewish people, who were denied citizenship in most of the countries they lived, were granted only limited citizenship rights in some European countries until recently, and continue to be denied citizenship in some Arab countries today, also longed to become citizens in their host countries. America's readiness to extend citizenship to us as immigrants is one of the reasons for our community's love of this country.
The accusation of "dual loyalty" based on religion, however, was one of the large roadblocks to gaining citizenship. It was not perceived that Jews could follow the laws of the host nation when they had their own internal set of laws and rules for daily living, so they were held in suspicion. Religious tolerance is hard-won for others, even in America. FOr example, when the Roman Catholic, John F. Kennedy first ran for the presidency in l960, many accused that he couldn't possibly be loyal to America because in his heart he'd first listen to what the Pope told him to do, not the U.S. Constitution. NOnetheless, he was elected and became our youngest, also the first Catholic, President of the U.S.<br>
When you want to become a citizen, it has more responsibilities than rights and freedoms, in some cases. Countries expect you to support them in military endeavors, enlist your children (!) in their army perhaps. I am struck by your desire to become a citizen of China, thinking back to just 30 years ago when Americans could not travel there. It would have been comparable to today wanting to become a dual citizen of North Korea. Trade has certainly opened up new avenues for your generation. But the government policies of China, and human rights issues, still put us somewhat opposed as a nation to some of their policies.
As a U.S. born citizen (grandchild of immigrants), when we lived in Canada for awhile, we wished to add a second citizenship there. Very interesting process. The Canadians had no objection to dual citizenship with the U.S. In the U.S., there was a process of consideration where we had to give our reason for desiring the additional citizenship. Basically, it had to have a reason (in our case, based upon profession) plus we had to sign that we were not rejecting basic American democratic values by taking on this new citizenship. Had we wanted to become citizens of North Korea or Cuba, and thereby declare our loyalty to a Communist government, that would be viewed as antithetical to American values and rejected.
Time will tell whether our relations with China will progress so that you could add on such a citizenship someday, as you coudl readily do today for the UK. Of course, studying up on all their laws and jumping their bureaucratic hurdles is time-consuming, but interesting! The world is a changing place, that's for sure.</p>
<p>Chedva, it's because of that history of the Jews in France and Germany that I asked the question. It's one I consider seriously. If America turned anti-Semitic, I guess I would leave -- I would have to, to survive. But the older I get, the more difficult that seems. I am amazed at our ancestors (or, for some of us, our grandparents or parents) who came to this country when they were 85 -- or, just as incredible, who came to this country when they were 15, by themselves. How in the world did they do that? </p>
<p>The lobster analogy is perfect. And that's why Original Poster asked her question -- is mentioning my Judaism going to turn the flame on under my pot of water? Or should I not mention it?</p>
<p>I agree with the posters here who said it is really really really not an issue in college admissions. It used to be, no question about it. That's why lots of brilliant Jews wound up going to City College of NY instead of Harvard or Yale, in the '30s or '40s. But times have changed in that regard: There was an article a few years ago in the Wall Street Journal about how Vanderbilt was trying to recruit Jewish students, as a way to improve their stats for incoming students. </p>
<p>But the issue of what it means for American Jews to identify as Jewish is so much more interesting.</p>
<p>There are posts on CC that talk about difficulties for Jewish students these days at schools like SF State, particularly when some political rallies include anti-israel components -- this is troubling. But I strongly doubt if the admissions committees would discriminate against Jews, and certainly not overtly, even amongst themselves. And the US seems like the least antisemitic place to be -- just read the Guardian or the London Review of Books to see the contrast.</p>
<p>Have you read Alan Dershowitz's book, The Vanishing American Jew? He argues that, while response to anti-semitism defined American Jewish identity in the 20th century, our biggest challenge for the 21st century will be the appreciative acceptance we are now accorded within society, and assimilation due to our non-differentiation.</p>
<p>..and as a result, Dershowitz makes the case for clebrating and giving positive reasons to be Jewish in America; that this will be more compelling to the next generation and express their world better than the older reasons to carry forward our traditions, such as "we can't give Hitler a posthumous victory."
On the other hand, I teach Jewish teens and see their tremendous interst in learning more about the Holocaust...as well, as mamenyu points out, the newest versions of campus anti-Semitism derive more from Middle East conflicts than memories of Europe. (Since, at least in Iran, there IS no memory of Europe...)
Much food for thought.</p>
<p>The results of the analysis of the Y chromosome markers of the Kohanim and non-Kohanim were indeed significant. A particular marker, (YAP-) was detected in 98.5 percent of the Kohanim, and in a significantly lower percentage on non-Kohanim.</p>
<p>In a second study, Dr. Skorecki and associates gathered more DNA samples and expanded their selection of Y chromosome markers. Solidifying their hypothesis of the Kohens' common ancestor, they found that a particular array of six chromosomal markers were found in 97 of the 106 Kohens tested. This collection of markers has come to be known as the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH)--the standard genetic signature of the Jewish priestly family. The chances of these findings happening at random is greater than one in 10,000."</p>
<p>You can compare Jews with Italians. Italians are a people that share a common ethnicity, culture and religion. For the most part Jews are also a people that also share a common ethnicity, culture and religion. It is, of course, not always the case. You can have Jews for Jesus. Or you can have members of other ethnic groups convert to Judaism. However for the most part Jews going back at least for several millenia share a constant line of descendents technically going back to Aharon HaKohen (at least for the Kohanim). Italians I would gather, probably had as much intermixing as Jews during this time. We could have called inhabitants of the peninsula of Italy, "Catholics." And said these Catholics shared a common ethnicity, culture and religion. And you could have Catholics convert to say Hindu, and called them Catholics for Hinduism, but we would still consider them ethnically Italian, wouldn't we? You could also have people from another ethnicity convert to Catholism but eventually they could marry other ethnic Italians and their descendants would become more ethnically Italian. To me being Jewish is far more than embracing a religion. I dare say that many Jews in the US would call themselves Jewish even if they did not actively practice Judaism since they would take pride in being culturally Jewish and to some degree also embrace being ethnically Jewish.</p>
<p>So in short, yes, I think one can be ethnically "half-Jewish" (just as one can be "half-Italian").</p>
<p>hey.... i think first of all that yes even tho your last name can tell that you are jewish i think you still should put it on your app... becausenot being accepted because you are jewish is anti-semitism... and anyways whats wrong on being jewish... im jewish.. but is because ppl like you that are afraid to tell they are jewish that the anti-semitism is comming back to the world.... be proud of it, not affraid, ... you are part of a great heritage..</p>
<p>honestly don't worry about it. if it is a college that would look down at you for being jewish, would you really want to go there anyway? personally, i can't hide it when my school has the term "yeshiva" in its name lol, but nor would i want to.</p>
<p>Just curious - where would you reveal this information? On the demographic type checkboxes or in an essay or interview? If revealing this information is important to you, you should reveal it. I would hope you'd face no recrimination.</p>
<p>
[quote]
1. You are Jewish, not Reform Jewish. Reform is a denomonation within Judaism that describes synagogue affiliation. Similarly, people don't say, "I'm Methodist Christian."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, it would depend. The Yale interviewer asked me for a denomination when I told him I was Christian. (No idea why, really...) Also, in some cases, it might be beneficial if you're from a particular Christian denomination. On the forms for Swarthmore, they ask if you're a Quaker, IIRC.</p>