<p>agreed. but it isn't so much a matter of keeping up.</p>
<p>
[quote]
colleges would look at the score of a native Chinese person who got a 5, and realize that that there's a reason for the high score, and it didn't require a year of work like it would for most Americans. Thus, for most colleges I think, the student would not gain credit, maybe only higher placement. Depends on the college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It didn't require a year of work. For native speakers it required many many years of work. I don't get it? </p>
<p>
[quote]
that is the common argument galosien, but no one is inherently born with calculus abilities.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You'd be surprised. </p>
<p>There are savants who can recognise a prime number like the back of their hands -- without previous study. (In one case, they had a "smooth" shape.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, according to Chomsky, we has humans are born with a language acquisition device which enables us to inherently learn language. It has been proven repeatedly that after a certain age it is much harder to learn and become fluent in a language. Therefore, I think it would be fair (but extremely, extremely difficult and unrealistic to do) to curve those who had learned the language before that certain age. I realize how ridiculous this may sound so I do not suppose it be implemented, only pondered as a FAIR method.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How is it fair?</p>
<p>I'm saying the same amount of work has been done, only via different methods. That language acquisition device which enables rapid language acquisition also requires a <em>major portion</em> of the attention span, and active and constant conceptualisation of everything. Why is there an "optimum period"? After a while adult brains must do something else besides acquiring language.</p>
<p>I have been working on ways to use mental approaches to try to "turn" the module back on -- not very rigourous ways, of course, but I find that adopting a child's mindset often makes me see a language I'm studying very differently. Suddenly at times it becomes easier to think in that language, simply by adopting a different mindset.</p>
<p>So in terms of useful mental effort, I argue native speakers spend the same as non-native speakers. </p>
<p>Non-native speakers must waste more of their time by acquisition via conditioning and behaviourism, but that is not "useful work" (in a sense analogous to the physics sense).</p>
<p>First of all the word is recognize. Second of all, being able to identify a prime number doesn't really correlate to being able to do calculus, but I will still cede to the nature of that argument. </p>
<p>However, there are such a marginal amount of savants in the world, it is really a moot point in comparison to how many native speakers take AP language tests. Also, consider, of those few savants that really exist, how many are taking AP classes? Most are in special environments because they can not handle simple, practical functions of everyday life. I think they do not really have the opportunity to be AP students.</p>
<p>More later on Chomsky, I have to shower</p>
<p>It wasn't work, necessarily. Speaking English at home, I'm sure, isn't work for you. For many Americans taking AP language classes, they don't have that practice, nor that time, to do so in even four years of high school. Thus, it is unfair, in my opinion, for international speakers to gain credit for it. Higher placement, like I said, sure, but I don't think colleges would give them credit.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Thus, it is unfair, in my opinion, for international speakers to gain credit for it
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Credit doesn't reflect fairness, merely mastery. </p>
<p>How is it not work? How is L1 language acquisition not work? For those who study child development, they know what an intricate thing language development in children is.</p>
<p>I've forgotten how hard it was for me when I initially had to learn standard English because I use it so often now, or how hard it was when I read my first chapter book at the age of six. It's easy to dismiss the work simply because the work was done easy in life. Should you receive credit for your ability to read in the AP exams? </p>
<p>I mean, learning reading earlier in life must be harder than learning reading later in life -- or is it really? Of course, if we go with the OP's argument, we can extend the logic and say that receiving credit for anything related to our ability to read is unfair because there are so many people in the world who don't learn to read until much later in life.</p>
<p>
[quote]
However, there are such a marginal amount of savants in the world, it is really a moot point in comparison to how many native speakers take AP language tests.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>There are a marginal amount of people taking AP Music Theory, when you think of it. ;) </p>
<p>The numbers theory makes no sense. Like gee, for some people, art has been their entire life, just that they don't have any college coursework to show for it. I bet they shouldn't get credit if they passed the AP Art exam with flying colours? ;) </p>
<p>Children are language savants by nature. That is the beauty of language acquisition. A lot of people have this belief that L1 language acquisition is painless and requires no work. They have forgotten I think, what it is like to be a child...</p>
<p>personally i dont think so, but that's probably because my native language is english.</p>
<p>i'm sure that if spansih was my first language i would be taking ap spanish lol!</p>
<p>I am too lazy to read all 86 posts in this forum, but if native speakers aren't allowed to take an AP in their own language, neither should english speakers take ANY of the APs (namely Language and Literature, among others), since the foreign speakers are at a great disadvantage in every test except the very few AP test(s) that are in their own language</p>
<p>My last name is Japanese. I can't speak a single word of Japanese, I now currently live in Japan and attend an International School. I was born and lived in the US until last year. I speak Chinese with the vocabulary of a six-year old, I cannot read nor write.</p>
<p>AP shows a mastery of a language, your skill and proficiency.
TO take the AP Chinese I have to study SO hard. It takes me hours to go through ONE grammar point, I have no idea how to take formally, I have no idea how to use the grammar, My vocabulary is so lacking... I have no idea how I'm going to take this exam. </p>
<p>Most Chinese born Americans go to Chinese school every SINGLE weekend, same as any other language speakers. They go to their own LANGUAGE school, where they have to devote half of their weekends to do homework and study. There is no way you're going to be able to read and write and have a proficient lexicon simply by "speaking to your parents". </p>
<p>I only speak to one parent in Chinese (Mandarin), I have to speak to my Grandparents in Taiwanese (Which is like comparing Spanish to French). My parents communicate to each other in ENGLISH. Their English is accented and by the time I was in 2nd grade my vocabulary surpassed them. I could NEVER ask my parents to edit my writing, I never had parents to explain a word or use an expansive vocabulary with me. Every time I went to an "normal American" friends house I felt envious of the fact that they could LEARN SO MUCH MORE ENGLISH AND ME SO MUCH MORE IMMERSED than I can.</p>
<p>I had to read books, watch tv, participate in school, just like anyone else, right? Haha, and when people ask me to explain English grammar I HAVE NO IDEA. When I ask my native Japanese friend to explain English grammar she can go into so much detail and I'm just sitting their starry eyed and in awe. </p>
<p>So now. This summer I'm going to study Japanese intensively. I'm currently a Sophmore. I have less than two years to cram four years of Japanese into me. KEEPING in mind that at the same time I'm taking AP French. (Which I have to study as a foreign language like anyother person) When I take the AP exam, and they look at my last name and go "Oh she's Japanese", "Oh she took the Chinese AP as well" .." Oh she took the French AP".</p>
<p>Does it really matter? No it really doesn't. :P So should I really not be "allowed to take the Chinese AP"...</p>
<p>JUST TAKE THE EXAM IF YOU WANT TO. Most Chinese people write down all the hours the were forced to sit in a room on a weekend to STUDY. The college will KNOW they went to Chinese school for 12 or so years..so when they look at the SAT or AP score it's kinda a.."duh". </p>
<p>Isn't it just life? It's just a test. I'm assuming most Chinese native's take the SAT or AP to get the full score to show the college that "hey I went to Chinese school for this many hours and I studied and had interest in my heritage etcetc". And when they seen a non-native get a 5 its a different story. It's a different impression. It's all forms of "effort", so what's the big deal? It's just results..</p>
<p>I do believe you missed the title of this thread. :D</p>
<p>Title says it. And I don't see how the thread was useless, seeing how a lot of people were able to make good arguments for or against the topic. My post, from several weeks ago</p>
<p>
[Quote]
OK, I didn't mean to come off as complaining, I just wanted to get some discussion/opinions out of this. Some very good points were made, on both sides. I suppose the conclusion of this would be: take an AP course or other school course as a native speaker because you want to further or complete your mastery of your language, not because you want an easy 5 or 800 (assuming you were capable of easily getting those scores).
[/Quote]
</p>
<p>I don't see why not. Those who oppose native speakers taking tests of their language are just basically being biased toward those speakers. I was appalled by the number of people who think that way.</p>
<p>90% of people taking Chinese get 5/5. How does that represent bell-curve?</p>
<p>I don't get it. The number of native speakers taking the test of their language DOES NOT, in anyway, affect the curve. If you get 5/5, you deserve it. You prove you speak that language efficiently. </p>
<p>And that measurement is the sole purpose of AP/SAT tests.</p>
<p>Chinese rock(s).</p>
<p>This is racism. No matter how you spin it. Let's be truthful here, languages are hard. When meeting asians, I do not expect them to know an asian language. Why? Many asians lose this. It's really not that hard. Start speaking to your parents in English (I know very many people who do) and you'll lose whatever language advantage you'll have in two seconds flat. Colleges need to realize that. Just because your family speaks some language doesn't mean you'll be a god at it. It really isn't that easy.</p>
<p>I think you're wrong. It DOES stay.</p>
<p>Depends on what you consider "stay". if by stay, you mean..I know what pho is, well then, no, I would not consider that staying. It is not even comparable the degree of chinese for example, used in households to the AP test. There is a huge language gap.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think you're wrong. It DOES stay.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>language</a> attrition - Google Scholar</p>
<p>kthxbai</p>
<p>I really don't see why not.
As it's been said before, is it fair to not let a mathematical genius take the AP Calc exams?</p>
<p>Anyway, I have a different point though. I am a native speaker of Russian, and I took the Advanced Placement Russian test this year. It's not from Collegeboard, but rather a collaboration between Collegeboard and American Council of International Studies (or something like that). Because of certain cirsumstances at school, most of my class was native speakers, and six non-native speakers. Honestly...just because your parents speak the language at home does not mean know you know the intricacies of grammar and procedures at all. I am an excellent speaker, but I was one of two on my level in the class, and while I knew what the right answers were...I didn't know why they were the right answers until I learned the rules for the first time.</p>
<p>Also, part of this exam is a conversation over the phone. The conversation for natives is about half an hour, while the one for non-natives is about 10-15 minutes. They ask non-natives to describe their family and their house, and they asked people like me the differences between the economies of the leading powers of todays world, and to discuss womens rights throughout history.</p>
<p>I know it's not the same test, and it's not the same format, but I would be ridiculously mad if someone told me I can't take the AP for my native language. Think about it this way even, the purpose of AP is to get college credits. Is it fair that a native speaker will be behind in their own language when in college?</p>