<p>So my Junior S asked the question last night how bad would a Withdraw in Spanish III look as opposed to a C? For background, hes absolutely miserable in the class pretty bad teacher (as a parent, I have gotten annoyed at some of the voluntary extra credit assignments many of them have nothing to do with Spanish, and they are voluntary in name only), and hes not crazy about the subject matter anyway. Hes been a good soldier about it so far. He works hard, but his current grade is an 81, which is a mid-C at his HS. If he drops, the transcript will state Withdraw-Passing and wont have an effect on his GPA. Hes thinking of picking up a semester-long social science class (probably at the AP level) in its place. </p>
<p>I admit that my guilt may affect my judgment. He didnt want to take a 3rd year of foreign language in the first place, but I insisted because I saw that many schools recommended a third year of foreign language. His argument was that only two years was required, and its his worst subject, so why not take another AP class instead. I should have listened to him. Part of me wants to tell him to stick it out -- it's good for his moral fiber :) But part of me is saying that I got him into this mess, what's the big deal about admitting it was a mistake and moving on? </p>
<p>FWIW hes not a HYPSM candidate where any little stumble on his transcript could be a big problem. A B+ student, SAT will probably be in the 1300-1350 range, ACT in the 29-30 range. </p>
<p>Your thoughts and/or past experiences would be very helpful. Thanks.</p>
<p>I have never heard of a student withdrawing except for a medical reason at this late date in a grading term. Maybe your school is quite leniant but I am wondering if this option is even available to your son. Are you saying that a student can withdraw/passing until the day grades are assigned for the semester? This doesn't give much credibility to students GPAs at your school does it?</p>
<p>blossom, it will definitely involve a GC conversation! I was just looking for thoughts in advance. </p>
<p>hazmat, I hear what you're saying, but I don't think this is as unusual as you seem to think. Just from my recollections of some threads on this board, I know a number of students are able to drop courses at a fairly late date (there's often discussion about dropping AP classes). With respect to the integrity of the GPA -- I don't know. A Withdraw/ Failing is the same as an F. There is also a Withdraw/Medical classification. The Withdraw/Pass sits there on the transcript, so colleges can do with it as they will.</p>
<p>I don't think a withdrawl will be a major problem. A particular school might question the WP on a transcript but your explanation for dropping the course is not atypical. IMO what he does with the time he is not taking Spanish will say more on the college application than the withdrawl.</p>
<p>It sounds as if the school policy allows this and that you forsee no penalty. I cannot speak to how colleges view this during the application process but I am sure others on CC can speak to that.</p>
<p>What effect do you think the C/81+- ( if that were to be the final grade) would have on his overall GPA? I would want to consider how his expected GPA with/without Spanish III compares to the posted GPA's of his more favorite colleges.</p>
<p>In all honesty, it wouldn't have a huge effect. Let's face it, over four years any one grade (other than an F, I suppose) won't drastically change the GPA. Right now, GPA is a 91 (A=93+, B=85+). A C might bring it down to a 90 (maybe an 89 depending on other grades). That won't significantly impact his GPA compared with the schools on his list -- probably. It's always hard to tell with this d**n 0-100 grading scale anyway. That's another rant, for which I let Xiggi carry the ball!</p>
<p>lderochi - fwiw, we had the same d**nable 0-100 and the same A=93+ etc. I didn't think the one grade could have much of an effect, although you'd certainly like to have that 90/91 vs. an 89, just for the "first impression" effect, I'd think.</p>
<p>I can't remember - is your GC one you have confidence in? If so, I'd go with his/her recommendation. If not, wait til the gurus here on cc weigh in.</p>
<p>GC or CC guru wisdom aside, forget about your guilt (your original advice was solid) and don't pass on this life lesson opportunity. Your son is going to face challenging situations many times over during his lifetime. Bad teachers, bad grades, now...bad job, bad bosses down the road--whatever. Forget about what the colleges are going to think. How is your son going to feel knowing that he bailed out every time he sees that W on his transcript? Pretend quitting isn't an option. How about some creativity and perseverance to get through the term and then move on? How many weeks are left in the semester? How weighted is the final exam? There still should be some room to bump that grade up a bit. How about getting a Spanish tutor to work with him these last few weeks? In addition to paid tutors, National Honor Society kids generally tutor for free for community service credit. Ask your counseling office for some referrals. Give him the tools he needs to finish strong. He will feel your admiration. Making the best of a bad situation leads to pride, confidence, satisfaction...all good things.</p>
<p>Fair enough GoBlue, but this might affect his acceptance to good schools if he gets a C on the transcript. Then again, a "withdraw" doesn't look good either.</p>
<p>Estimate and calculate his chances of pulling a B- in the course. If that is feasible, stick with it because a B- doesn't look nearly as bad as a C. Then if the probability is low, have your son speak to the teacher and his counselor. If the teacher can offer him additional help, etc. that would be a bonus.</p>
<p>Finally, phone the universities he is interested in to find out how a "withdraw" would affect their calculation of his GPA when looking at his application. Ask them how detrimental it would be for an applicant to have a "withdraw" on his/her transcript. Because let's face it, many GCs don't really have any knowledge regarding specific universities. (I would actually call the universities first to find out.)</p>
<p>Big picture...character-building is far more significant to the man your son will become than cleaning up this mess for him because this "might affect his acceptance to good schools." He sounds like a good kid, a good student, a hard worker. This is not a dire, end-all situation. He will survive, learn from it, and, no doubt, will certainly be admitted to many great schools next year.</p>
<p>I believe that a school will understand if a student consistently scores worse in one subject than all the others. Spanish was always my worst class and brought down my gpa, but I pushed through for 5 years (A, B, C+, C+, B --- school didn't give minuses). I believe the school will understand that the student isn't very good at this subject, and will see the effort they put in working hard for their grades. I also think the 3rd year is important, where I went to high school you HAD to have 3 years of one language or 2 years of 2 languages to graduate.</p>
<p>*all of this is my opinion and I have no stats to back it up.</p>
<p>GoBlueAlumMom: I'm not really sure about this character-building stuff. Frankly when I took 6 AP classes my senior year of high school, my mother was the one telling me to 'slow down" and drop a class. I ended up NOT dropping it, but maybe I should have because it really stressed me out all year and I had a hell of a time taking 6 exams come May. </p>
<p>Sometimes this "character-building" is just not worth it if it makes you unhappy. </p>
<p>For example, a girl at my university has taken Chemistry over again because she received an F the first time around. She is now getting Ds and Cs on her exams. I'd recommend she quit the major. Sometimes knowing when to quit--rather than press on when it's hopeless-- is what builds your character. </p>
<p>However, this circumstance is not as drastic, so maybe quitting isn't desirable. I still recommend calling the universities first to find out how a "withdraw" would affect his application and then deciding from there.</p>
<p>Also keep in mind that if the S wants to apply to universities requiring 3 years of language, then he should continue with it.</p>
<p>Edit: It really depends on what universities he wants to attend...</p>
<p>I like GoBlueAlumMom's advice. Wish I'd thought of it myself. Made a decision based on good paternal advice (even if there could have been other good options); now stick with it. No bailing out. That is good advice. Do what it takes in remaining time to get that 81 up as high as it can go. Then, okay, no more Spanish.</p>
<p>I am thinking about this 2 years of lang business
D is doing ok in her 2nd year class- although they do have a lot of assignments and she doesn't want to take it next year.
While she is doing OK- she could also afford to spend more time on other classes that are as /or more important like history/math and her favorite subject science.
I may have her take another language next year
I know you didn' t say he has a learning difference- I do know for some kids languages are very difficult and colleges will waive those requirements ( with documentation)
So is he finishing this semester or is he dropping before the end?
I would try and encourage him to at least finish this semester , maybe get some extra help during the winter break</p>
<p>Except for college of course. I've already warned him that in all likelihood he'll have satisfy a foreign language requirement. He groaned. </p>
<p>Anyway, thanks for all the good advice everyone. A lot of food for thought and honest opinions, and that's what I truly appreciate about the gang here at CC. I'm not so sure my original advice was all that hot, but that's neither here nor there -- he needs to discuss the situation with the GC, but I'm going to urge him to stick with it. </p>
<p>I'm pretty sure that however this turns out, it's not going to be a life-changing moment in the grand scheme of things. He's certainly had enough opportunities to show himself as someone who bails out when times are tough, and he hasn't done so during tougher times than these. </p>
<p>If he were to withdraw, how would he feel evertime he sees that "W" on his HS transcript? Probably how I feel everytime I see that "Suspended" on mine -- a little chuckle, remembering how it seemed like the end of the world at the time, and at what an idiot I was when I was 17.</p>
<p>Wish I could hide this thread, though -- he's not a CC regular, but he browses from time to time and soon enough he'll notice this one, and get all annoyed about it. But then part of my job as parent seems to be to either annoy him or embarass him :)</p>
<p>Iderochi -
The third year of any language seems to be the one that gives a lot of kids the most trouble, mainly because that's when the language starts moving beyond memorizing grammar and into a higher level use of the language. </p>
<p>Have you considered hiring a Spanish tutor to help your son? That might help if he decides to stick with it.</p>
<p>My daughter is finding Honors French IV to be surprisingly difficult this year. Dropping isn't an option - her school only allows drops during the first two weeks of the year and she also wants to continue French in college. She's just started working with a tutor who is a native French speaker with a teaching background and that seems to be helping her get over the difficulties with the more advanced grammar, as well as fine-tuning her conversational skills. D. feels the extra time and cost have been well worth it so far.</p>
<p>Try asking the teacher if he/she can recommend a Spanish tutor. If they can't, do a google search for "Spanish Tutor" then the name of your city. That's how we found my daughter's tutor. Or, if you have a college or university nearby, contact the Spanish department and ask if they have any advanced students who might be interested in tutoring.</p>
<p>Regarding the effect of dropping Spanish on his future college applications: Will he have four years of all other core subjects (math, science, history/social science, English)? My general rule of thumb is that it is probably OK to have a weakness in ONE core academic area (by weakness I mean only two years of foreign language, for example, when most schools will want to see 3 or 4), but TWO weaknesses in core academic areas is usually more dicey.In my daughter's case, she will only have 2.5 years of science because that is the only way she could fit two years of art into her schedule. But, her GC made if very clear that if she wasn't going to take a 3rd year of science, she better plan on taking 4 solid years of everything else.</p>
<p>Carolyn, very good comments and points. A tutor is possible, but the time constraints with EC and work make it difficult. We'll have to discuss. Re the other core areas, no real problem. He'll have 4 years of English (AP for one), 4 years of social science (at least 2 AP), probably 5 credits in science (2 classes next year, AP in one of them), and 4 years of math (through calculus -- maybe AP, but possibly not). So I'm not really worried there.</p>
<p>You only need four percentage points to get to a "B" (85%), which is probably within his reach. It's not like he's struggling to pass. I think it might be more difficult to explain a "W" than a "B" or a "C".</p>