<p>So my freshman D called me for advice about whether she should follow her advisors reccomendation to drop a class. She was directed to meet with him because she got an F on her first of three tests, each worth 33 percent of her grade. She thinks she has been "irresponsible" and can do better. The advisor says she can drop the class, be less than full time "just this once", and make up the science requirement later. Apparently the best she is likely to do at this point is a C, which "won't look good, especially for pre-med". She is not neccesarily pre-med, I wonder if a W wpuld look bad too, and I think this is just about the easiest science class there is. She has never taken an AP Science class ( her school did not offer many AP's), but took a lab science every year and got mostly A's, one B in honors Biology. Took AP Bio test and got a 2. I like to think her school was not very competative, but that she has potential, if she can rise to the occasion. She really excels at extracurriculars.......
Both the advisor and I think she should talk to the instructor, but I am not sure how that "talk" should go. My fantasy is he will say "meet with me during office hours several times a week and we will make this work" and she will say " that's what I wanted to hear and I am ready to work hard now!". Then I will say "yay!!! It IS worth 50K a year!" Any thoughts?</p>
<p>I have a brother in college, and from what he says, your D should drop the class. The professor most likely will not be willing to raise her grade above the class curve as an exception, and if she is struggling to get a C, it's not worth the time. She should drop the class, study ahead for a class she will take in a following semester or year, and excel at that. The advisor is there to help the student, so it's wise to consider their words. I'm sure your daughter is brilliant, but maybe science isn't her subject.</p>
<p>OP: I'd say your D should drop the course. I would love to say that it's possible to claw your way back from that, but sometimes one just needs a blank slate to start over. </p>
<p>In this case, if test was 33% of the grade, and your D just bombed it for whatever reason, then no matter how hard she tries from now on, she's looking at a C, which frankly, isn't worth the effort and the hit to the GPA (esp for a pre-med). I know it would be great if the prof was willing to work with her (and no prof would refuse to do so), but the chances of the prof willing to make an exception and do something extraordinary so she could pull her grade up is pretty small (especially for those large intro science lectures). </p>
<p>Dropping a course now and getting a W probably won't impact your D's transcript (certainly not her GPA), and many of my friends have done so in the past with minimal consequence. Just know that this fallback can be used only once. Also, she has somewhat of an excuse of being a first semester freshmen getting adjusted to college so that would work in her favor if she is called into account for that down the road. </p>
<p>What I would recommend is to drop the course now, but ask (if the course is a lab course) to stay in the lab section if possible. I had a friend who dropped orgo II halfway but stayed to finish the lab. They gave him credit for that portion of the course so that when he took it again over the summer, he didn't need to do lab all over again. After this semester, your D can either try her hand at the course again next semester or put it off until the summer (if that's an option) and do a summer session where she can focus on just one course. </p>
<p>Also, I would suggest that your D look into the possibility of getting a peer tutor for that class when she takes it. They are free student tutors available for most intro science courses that can meet with your D once a week to help her with course work. Here's the website:</p>
<p>Academic</a> Resource Center</p>
<p>Thank you! This has been helpful. I am laughing ( well, not really) as I found this old thread, searching the word "withdraw" in this forum. Check out my post number 6</p>
<p>A couple of things I'd like to clarify. So is getting a C so bad if you are NOT pre-med? What do you make of the fact that this is suposed to be an "easy A" science class, at least according to posts here? I'm trying to imagine just how bad it has to be to get an F on a test in a class like that.( FWIW, I majored in Biology anf finished medical school, albeit in a completely different era and "tier"). Also, what is the prognosis for graduating on time if you withdraw to less than full time? What are the financial implications? Are you likely to need to go to summer school? Can you go to summer school somewhere other than Duke? </p>
<p>Feel free to make "helicopter" comments, but this is a lot of money at a difficult time, and I'd love to have a sense of where this is going. It is my impression that she has always been among the "smartest", but at a so-so school. She is used to procrastinating, BS'ing, and knowing and doing what it takes to do just enough to stay on top. She worked hard in comparison to most of her peers, but NOTHING like some "CC" folk describe. I tried to warn her....</p>
<p>It depends on which class this is. I have taken a few of the "easy A" science classes and have found 1 to be very hard and cumulative, but on the others, it is really easy to get an A if you put the time in. If she can get serious about it and get A's for the rest of the time, it might be worth it for her to continue so she doesn't have to overload later. It's just 1 class and won't make much of a difference long-term. Overloading could give her 5 bad classes especially if she isn't that motivated to work.</p>
<p>Some of the ones that are considered easy are EOS 11 (earth and ocean), chem 83, BAA 93, physics 55 (astronomy), and I think 1 or 2 in the bio department. If it's not one of those, it probably isn't an easy one at all.</p>
<p>Thank you. It's ocean science. All she's told me is that the instructor "just goes over powerpoint slides". She is often tempted to "sleep in", and it's at 10 AM.!!!!. There were "only 15 questions on the test". She chose it because she thinks she might be interested in marine biolgy. Tell me more about "putting the time in".</p>
<p>Shrinkrap: so to try to answer some of your questions in order:</p>
<p>So is getting a C so bad if you are NOT pre-med?</p>
<p>Generally, it's nothing to get depressed over. I mean it's 34 credits to graduate, so assume that your D hard works and get decent grades, it'll even out in the long term. But what I was trying to say was that after doing badly on a test, she'd have to put in a A effort just to get in the C range (at least that's what I understood from the original post) and that's not really worth it. </p>
<p>What do you make of the fact that this is suposed to be an "easy A" science class, at least according to posts here?</p>
<p>It really depends, there are some easy classes at Duke. Then there are "easy" classes where you really do need to work. The latter category of classes are sometimes called easy because they are formulaic, like you do the work, you turn it in, you get A. But if you don't then you have the potential to not do so well. </p>
<p>what is the prognosis for graduating on time if you withdraw to less than full time?</p>
<p>I'd say that's generally not a problem. If your D has AP credits, then chances are she'll have at least one free slot somewhere in her schedule that she can use for situations like this. If not, then she might need to overload an extra semester or take a summer course. But generally, people finish on time since it's just one class.</p>
<p>What are the financial implications?</p>
<p>I don't think you'll get any money back from Duke since it's already so far into the semester. What could be a problem is if your D has any external scholarships that require her to maintain a full time status. She might lose those for the year or semester if she underloads. But I would check with them first. </p>
<p>As for making up that course, it doesn't cost extra to overload at Duke. If your D wants to do a summer session, Duke offers financial aid for undergrads for one summer session while they are here IIRC. </p>
<p>*Are you likely to need to go to summer school? Can you go to summer school somewhere other than Duke? *</p>
<p>I wouldn't say that your D would need to go to summer school. She can either slot the course into her schedule somehow or overload a semester (preferably when she's taking some easy classes). </p>
<p>Summer sessions are of course another option. She can take it at Duke or she can take a course elsewhere (at a local college for instance). Just check with the relevant department to make sure that they would accept the course as a substitute for the course she's dropping and that the transfer credit would go through. </p>
<p>Another thing about transfer credits is that they don't count toward GPA calculations, so you would get credit for completing the course but it would show up as a transfer on the transcript and wouldn't be factored into the cumulative GPA calculations. That would be good if it was a noncritical science course (only used to fulfill graduation requirement) that your D struggles in. If it was something critical like orgo for premed, then I generally get the impression from advisors that med schools and such want you to take it with your college.</p>
<p>Drop the class. Her advisor knows what they are talking about. What if your D gets another "F" and then it is past the deadline to drop the class. Then she will have an F and it will take a long time for her GPA to recover from it.</p>
<p>College is different - it's hard to come back from a low grade in a class. Drop the course.</p>
<p>I'm not familiar with the ocean class - I think that's EOS 12. The easier one is EOS 11 which is just geology and all multiple choice tests. The best way to prepare for those classes is to do the readings when assigned then review the book before exams. It's also important to go to class all the time, even if slides are posted online. It's often hard to understand without hearing the professor discuss the slides.</p>
<p>I would worry less about the readings if the teacher tells you the they will only test stuff gone over in lecture (as my current EOS11 teacher did). In that case, the book is only supplemental and would be useful if you really didn't understand what the lecture is all about.</p>
<p>You are all so helpful! thank you! SBR, do you know anything about the EOS 12 class?</p>
<p>Is the class graded on a curve?
If so, a lot of people who are at the bottom of the class are going to withdraw.
It will become harder to get a better grade in the class.</p>
<p>I took Chem 151 as a freshman and got a C+ for midterm.
A good number of people dropped out of the class (I think they went down to Chem 23 or something like that) and the curve became tougher. My final grade was worse than a C+, I'll leave it at that.</p>
<p>On the other hand, I made some really stupid mistakes. For one of the midterms, I got drunk the night before. I was still in 'high school mode' and had trouble adjusting. </p>
<p>However, I wouldn't take the chance. She's still a freshman. She should just drop the class.
If worse comes to worse, she can re-enroll in the class and get a higher grade.</p>
<p>Lots of strong votes for dropping, then. </p>
<p>FWIW, she is not into drunken debauchery, but she HAS joined 3 choirs ( two with their own Bible studies....), on tap, the chronicle, and hoof and horn ( two different productions!) ...and that's just the ones she's happened to mention.... She's dropped two of these since the first month, but other than that, she's pretty into them. Sigh.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap: sorry I don't know anything about EOS12 or Prof Corliss (who I assume is teaching it this semester). Although the few ratings on ratemyprof seems to be positive. </p>
<p>But yeah, a class like EOS12 (if it's anything like EOS11), IMHO, isn't worth getting a C over. If it was something like Bio25 or one of the chem or physics, then I'd say one might be able to bite the bullet and just slog through it. But for dynamic oceans, I think dropping it now and retaking for an A or B and staying and fighting tooth and nail for a C would take about the same amount of effort and time. So I would say dropping would be a good choice.</p>
<p>I wonder if she can drop the class and still remain in it to try to get as much out of it as she can and then take it later? Not sure they will let her do this, but even if she askes it will show perserverance and grit and determination so at least if she has the same prof...he will respect her. First year is hard, lots of distractions and that can take a bite out of study time too. The scholarships issue will be something she may need to consider if she has any. I know from personal experience my first semester away was an eye opener. I always thought I could coast as I had great grades and after my first semester I realized you have to work really hard to maintin average for grad schools. Other students actually compete for the grades...wow what a concept. I woke up quickly, but some of my friends did not. The other issue is that no matter how smart you are in comparison to your high school, college is like a seive. At all the top schools you compete against the best of the best. If you take courses you are not stong in, you can find out quickly that the other students have so much of a head start that with a bad curve you really can't catch up. Maybe try auditing a course that you need over summer at any school closer so that when you take it you are better prepared? No easy answer here. The real issue may be to have a heart to heart and find out if she really wants pre-med or not and if it is a case that if she really took the course again what was th edifficulty in not doing better the first time...was it lack of study time or not understanding the material? If the material is all greek to her then she canm try to learn it on her own and see if she can become more comfortable with it, and if not evaluate if there are other majors she might perfer because there are weedout classes for Med and if she is struggling in the easier ones its a problem. I thnik D has to really evalaute herself and see why she was not doing well. I can say that my S is in a math class where rate my prof was not that favorable. That was not fair as the prof is very willing to help anyone who asks for it and really spends a lot of time with kids who ask to go through individiually and make sure they get the material. You may want to see if your D is taking advantage of asking for help if she needs it.</p>
<p>No scholarships or need based financial aid ( as was mentioned regarding summer school)....I wish. And I don't think she's really pre-med, but everyone asks because both her parents went that way, so you know ....I wonder if she go with the class for the weekend field trip to the Beufort (sp?) lab. She has already paid for it, and I hope it willl either light a fire or put one out.</p>
<p>A question for current students...she seems to think everone is out together having fun every night, and to not be a part of that will be made MORE depressing if she is studying...any truth to that ( most folks out having fun weeknights rather than studying?)</p>
<p>no...the other night I spent about 6 hours holed up in an empty class on the EQuad catching up on reading.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap: Most people study on weeknights and party on the weekends.
Libraries are always packed. Ironically, I see more fratty types at the library than geeky types but that's probably simply because there are more frat guys/sorority girls than geeks at Duke. My point is that the frat guys do study on the weekdays.
A lot of people will work on Sunday-Wednesday nights and then party Thursday night (if that's what she means)- I party often on Thursday and know a lot of people who do.</p>
<p>Thanks all. </p>
<p>She met with the teacher, and since there is another test before the deadline, they are going to work on it and see how it goes. She is ready to "fight back" since the advisor told her "maybe science is not your thing" (she has "duked it out" with the same 2 boys for "top dog" in science since 8th grade). I didn't really get a chance to share all your advice (and I'm glad she came up with her own answer and will take responsibility for it), but I did appreciate it.</p>
<p>Now if she could just get done with "Sweeny Todd"....</p>
<p>Dropping one class especially during Freshman year is not that punishable, since there are many factors involved and taken into consideration. I would say let her drop, since she will end up doing better later on anyway.</p>