<p>no point. in math and science anyways, getting a 5 requires a pretty masterful understanding of the subject (i did bs a 5 in euro, so i say this with the smallest reservations). and i think the point of ap tests like any test is to measure the level of mastery that a student has gained with the subject matter. distinguishing between 70, 80, 90% is just getting nit-picky.</p>
<p>Isn’t that technically where it should start getting the most nit-picky?</p>
<p>FWIW my high school treated AP courses in a variety of fashions. Every single one of my AP Physics C exam questions were taken from previous AP exams, though the scale was significantly less generous than an AP scale. Our AP Calc BC exams in the spring used previous AP questions, and there was literally no scale. On the other hand, courses like history did not give any AP questions at all, on the grounds that the good students would do well on the exam with no formal preparation. Whether an AP course/exam is harder or easier than the corresponding college course depends, but at Brown at least, Latin can’t compare, Calculus BC if one gets a “high” 5 is equivalent, Physics C is comparable to the lower intro course but not to the one for physicists, and no credit is given for the now-defunct Computer Science AB, and Chemistry places you into a course where they reteach the AP concepts. It may be different at other schools (all of my friends who took AB Computer Science with me placed out of first year, for instance), and I don’t support the expansion of the grading scale, but depending on the school, AP exams don’t necessarily compare at all to their equivalent college courses.</p>
<p>“Isn’t that technically where it should start getting the most nitpicky?”</p>
<p>Not if the exam is tailored so that the majority of the students only get, say, 45% of the questions correct. If only 9% or less are receiving scores above 70%, then those 9% are in the top of all testtakers, and earn a top grade. I really don’t understand the point of “nitpickicking” the elite 5s vs. the regular 5s when we’re talking about such a small percent of testtakers to begin with.</p>
<p>In terms of courses getting harder - I don’t think that would happen anytime soon. In some states the average for an entire test is around a 1.5. I highly doubt that if they changed their scale, teachers in these areas would suddenly say, “oh my! I need to start teaching for a better test!”</p>
<p>You may feel differently, and that is very nice for you, but many people find it difficult enough to get a 5 on the exam in the first place - and my high school was one where the majority of AP exam scores averaged around a 4.5. I’m pretty sure I did really well on the AP World History exam - probably well enough to get a 6 if needed - but I’m happy with my 5 as it is, seeing as that is still the hardest course I have ever taken.</p>
<p>I think that the majority of people know that an AP course can never be the true equivalent of a college course, but I’ve always looked at it as sort of a bridge between high school and college work. It has a higher workload, and it introduces you to more of the concepts you will have to know, but most colleges understand that no matter how well you score and how good your teacher was, there’s only so much that you can learn in an AP course. This is why most colleges don’t accept them formally for credit. Adding a 6 will not change this.</p>
<p>It could be argued, however, that although the exam is curved around the students so that only the top 10% receive 5’s, that doesn’t exemplify that the exam is necessarily tailored so that only the majority of students only get ~45% correct. It could be argued that this is rather simply a result of a large percentage of teachers not enforcing a strong curriculum in their classrooms. Out of 6 AP teachers off the top of my head at my school, only 2 of the teachers truly qualify for the position as an AP teacher. The rest have been improperly certified and only teach the class so the school can be seen as offering a larger number of AP courses. Of the other 4, only one of the teachers is decent and can effectively produce average scores of ~3 or so, the other 3 produce average scores of below 2. Again, I still stand by that 5 is pursued so minimally only because 1) that is what students know as the max possible, so there’s no reason to go higher (meaning they could go higher if higher were available, and they would), and 2) that a large percentage of AP instructors are outrageously poorly qualified. </p>
<p>Concerning teachers who produce averages around 1.5, that’s precisely my point. They should not be certified as an AP instructor until they can properly instruct students in the AP curriculum. The teachers who produce 1.5 averages dont need to “start teaching for a better test,” they need to start teaching period (I mean that, so many AP teachers literally don’t teach). These teachers contribute significantly to the large curve.</p>
<p>Given the idea that AP is more of a “yes or no” qualification kind of deal, as opposed to A vs. B vs. C kind of deal, I agree: adding a 6 may not change this. But, on the other hand, it may. By recognizing these students as having an excellent grasp of the concepts, upper tiered schools may accept that the student knows how to apply those concepts well, as he would have had to know so in order to perform a 6 on the exam.</p>
<p>I don’t mean to make this a back and forth argument so I’m sorry if it seems like I am, I just want to explore the topic & see what others think.</p>
<p>No, it’s okay, I think it’s an interesting debate. And I definitely agree that some AP teachers don’t teach - or, in some cases, many students take the exam without even taking the formal AP course. I guess I don’t think that adding a 6 would change any of that - I think it’s a completely different issue.</p>
<p>
The exam is, in fact, tailored that way. Usually only 50% of test takers get a 3 (“passing”) or above. This is why they make the exam so difficult… so that they can measure everybody’s abilities. The people who do REALLY well, really do know their material, and that is reflected in their score. </p>
<p>In a regular classroom test (of average difficulty), for example, there may be several students who make a perfect score, but that doesn’t mean all of them are equally intelligent. If there is only a minimum of so much knowledge required to pass, then some of the perfect-scorers may have the bare minimum knowledge required while others may have way more knowledge than was assessed on the test.</p>
<p>Scores (1-5) do nothing but tell you where you fall compared to other students. Who cares if you make a high-5 or a bare-minimum 5. Truth is, you did pretty well, and you have exemplified mastery of the content of the course.</p>
<p>Getting nitpicky serves no purpose, other than perhaps self-esteem for the students taking the test. Why, I don’t know… because getting a 5 itself is plenty to be proud of.</p>
<p>I don’t see the desire for the A, B, C type grading scale on AP exams. It is nothing but a yes or a no (stated previously) as to whether or not you know the information. To be honest, I don’t blame the colleges that don’t accept credit for anything other than a 5. Anything less than a 5 shows that you aren’t solid in the understanding of the material (with the exception of bad testing-habits, anxiety, etc.). And isn’t that what the point of AP exams are? To show colleges that you are already pretty well-versed in a subject area so that you don’t have to take the class again in college? Who cares if you get a 1, 2, 3, or 4? </p>
<p>This is an achievement test, not a ranking-compared-to-your-friends test to see who can get the most 5s. If you know the material, you should get a 5. Otherwise, you shouldn’t.</p>
<p>I know it’s been mentioned several times that the exams are scaled such that ~9% of students get 5s, but…</p>
<p>(Statistics from the College Board)</p>
<p>BC Calculus: 43.2% of students get 5s, 80.0% pass
Physics C E&M: 34.1% of students get 5s, 71.8% pass
Physics C Mechanics: 24.9% of students get 5s, 69.9% pass</p>
<p>Humanities exams tend to come closer to the scaled distribution you mentioned
European History: 13.9% of students get 5s, 67.0% pass
US History: 11.0% of students get 5s, 52.5% pass</p>
<p>I still don’t think that means a 6 is necessary, but that only ~9% of students get 5s is an argument that doesn’t necessarily hold water in the sciences.</p>
<p>“BC Calculus: 43.2% of students get 5s, 80.0% pass
Physics C E&M: 34.1% of students get 5s, 71.8% pass
Physics C Mechanics: 24.9% of students get 5s, 69.9% pass”</p>
<p>The obvious reason for this is because highly intellectual students take Calculus and Physics, Thus offsetting the ~9% of students getting a 5. Point being, would you prefer that they made it so only the top 10th percentile get a 5? No that would be unfair for students who all did very well. AP credits, even at a score of 5 are rarely accepted at elite schools. Making the highest score possible a 6 is not going to change that. </p>
<p>I don’t understand the purpose of these arguments. What is your real motivation for wanting a score of 6 to be the highest possible score? Is this purely for discussion, or do you really intend to persuade a change in the way the tests have been scored for the last 55 years (since 1955)?</p>
<p>coffeecup, my answer to your question is in many of my posts on this thread.</p>
<p>uroogla is right, and do note that I did specify this idea for AP’s in the maths & sciences specific.</p>
<p>The best argument I can see against this, which kind of runs off of reesez/SeekingUni’s point that it’s tailored, is that they purposely make the exam so hard, actually wanting students to get extremely low scores. That way, it enables them to curve however they want around whomever they want to hand 5’s to, and on down the list. However, I just can’t rid my mind of how many worthless AP instructors there are out there who treat the class like PE, and how this in turn causes such a huge amount of students to get extremely low scores for no reason, even though they would be fully capable of a 5 by simply having had a better teacher. </p>
<p>If you have a teacher who consistently, year by year, gets an average of >4 then that just shows that all you need is a good teacher, and then EVERYONE statistically will be getting >4. That means that for the overwhelming majority of students who get low scores, if they were simply thrown into this teacher’s class, they would then get a high score. Likewise, if the students in this good teacher’s class were thrown into a class with a bad AP teacher, their scores would then be low! If every student had at least a decent teacher, then there would no longer even be such things as 1’s and 2’s! I mean for goodness sake, you can get a 2 without having ever taken the course!</p>
<p>“BC Calculus: 43.2% of students get 5s, 80.0% pass
Physics C E&M: 34.1% of students get 5s, 71.8% pass
Physics C Mechanics: 24.9% of students get 5s, 69.9% pass”</p>
<p>Self selection. The dumb ones take AB and Physics B.</p>
<p>Engineer Head, Honestly, It’s not worth my time to read though all these posts.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/929118-raise-your-hand-if.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/929118-raise-your-hand-if.html</a>
And apart from the whole thread itself, post #5 offers further insight as well
and post #7
post #11
post #14
</p>
<p>Why would you want less people succeeding?</p>
<p>I think everyone made good points but the bottom line is, while a 6 might distinguish you from others, it really isn’t that important. Like people were saying previously, most college courses are a lot harder than AP courses. Many colleges don’t even accept AP credits regardless of score. The point of AP exams is not to necessarily to get a high score and distinguish yourself from others (although getting a 5 or hypothetically a 6 would be something to be very proud of) but rather to potentially receive credit or exemption from college courses. AP scores eventually don’t matter in the long run. And as people were saying before, some colleges only accept 5’s. For example, St. John’s University (although it isn’t even an Ivy League) only accepts 5’s in Math courses. Getting a 6 would not change that. It’s sort of like the SAT. Maybe it would be more prestigious to get a 2400 than a 2200 but it’s still a good score and they don’t even count after getting into college except if you like bragging. </p>
<p>Regarding teachers, I totally agree that many teachers are not qualified or don’t teach properly. I’ve had first-hand experience with that and actually had to stay home on schooldays to study just so I could pass the AP. Raising the score range to a 6 would not really change anything. Teachers are still going to teach the same things and give all students the same amount of practice. Better teachers will result in students getting better scores but that’s only based on preparation. Getting a 6 just means you got more things right - not necessarily that you were more prepared than the person who got a 5. There will always be incompetent teachers, it’s inevitable. Raising the bar to a 6 will not change it things except for truly dedicated students who will pressure themselves into studying more.</p>
<p>Simply, I think adding a 6 to the scoring scale is unnecessary.</p>
<p>However, I am interested in EngineerHead’s point regarding rather “incompetent teachers”. I definitely agree that there are many unsatisfactory teachers, which, in many cases, affect the scores of students (eitehr in class or AP, doesnt matter). While something should definitely be done about this, I dont understand the connection between adding a 6 to the scoring scale and improving the teaching standards of teachers. As Sabbie15 was saying, I dont think this would really change a teacher’s method-the unqualified teachers would still do what they do, while the already great teachers would perhaps “become better”. It’s funny, because in my AP English Language class this year we actually read a piece regarding this subject. Anyway, I think other actions should be taken to improve teacher’s teaching, or at least making sure they’re qualified. Since I dont see the correlation with adding a 6 to the scoring scale and improved teaching, and I see no other value in adding a 6, I respectfully disagree.</p>
<p>Ahah! Alas, I have debunked the most reasonable/strongest point against it, the counter point that AP exams are simply a “yes or no” kind of deal - which I initially was for.</p>
<p><a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/080251APStuParBull0708_071012.pdf[/url]”>http://professionals.collegeboard.com/profdownload/080251APStuParBull0708_071012.pdf</a>
*</p>
<p>As of now, I officially see no more complete & sound argument against it. While there are good points here and there, none of them really build up an argument.</p>
<p>realize though that if every teacher in the US taught that way (giving tests in class but grading without the curve), more people would NOT be getting 5s. The amount of people getting 5 would remain the same…just the curve would be more difficult on the exam</p>
<p>Can you further explain your reasoning for adding a 6? I know you said to “distinguish the true top from the herd”, but I dont really think that is needed. What would be the point? Also, as I’ve said, the connection you make between teachers and adding a 6 to the scoring scale-I do not see. </p>
<p>Further, your earlier point regarding how most teachers who use regular AP tests dont curve their tests is, I believe, untrue. While I can’t definitively know this, no teachers at my school choose to not use the curve-if they did there would be very, very few, if any, students who got As. Even if those students determined to get As changed their studying methods, etc, it would waste an immeasurable amount of time that would be, essentially, for a useless purpose. It is unnecessary to strive for getting an 80% or higher on an AP exam when around a 65%, in most cases, already proves your knowledge.</p>
<p>“Again, GETTING 80% IS NOT DIFFICULT.” I commend you for your clear intelligence…I can knowingly say you are near infinitely more intelligent than I, because when I take 6 or 7 AP tests in the following years I know I will be unable to get 80% or higher on most of them, if any. That applies even for the 4 I took this year. But I have to point out that most people will not find getting 80% easy, and I assure you there are far more people who find it difficult.</p>
<p>So would a 6 be equivalent to an A+ in a college course then?</p>