Should we care at all about rankings?

Parents Forum
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<p>Surely, no one should be influenced by small differences in rankings such as USNWR's. And surely, other factors -- "fit," quality of particular departments -- are more important than overall rankings. Having said that, though, are rankings completely irrelevant? Should we pay any attention to non-trivial differences in rankings?</p>

<p>Are they relevant to after-college opportunities? Presumably, grad schools know enough about colleges not to have to rely on rankings. But what about employers, who, by and large, don't have as much information about the quality of the education offered by different colleges?</p>

<p>Should a wide disparity in rankings between two schools that, on the face of it, appear to be roughly comparable cause concern, warranting closer inquiry? How does one conduct such an inquiry? Is it even possible to determine what factors resulted in the lower-rated school's ranking?</p>

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<p>I asked the doctors I work with the same question; one earned his degree via Ivy, one left Ivy and was happier at non Ivy and the rest went to state universities. They all hold the same titles, make roughly the same salaries per year. I do have one doc that is from an impoverished family in India, he told he knew his only chance at a life or education was to go to school on full scholarship. </p>

<p>Is he less of a doctor because he went to a Tier 4 school?</p>

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<p>I think anyone who says they don't at least look at the rankings and get a little chill of delight if a school they or their child go to or are considering is near the top is probably lying. </p>

<p>Rankings (and there are many more than the US News out there) are a useful data point. No harm in considering them as part of due dilligence into schools, BUT there are two caveats: (1) know and understand the methodology behind any ranking system and how it does/does not relate to actual undergraduate educational experience (2) don't build a list <em>solely</em> based on rankings or prestige, and try to avoid letting them influence your final choice excessively. </p>

<p>So, use them as another piece of the puzzle, enjoy the thrill if the rankings give you bragging rights, but don't make the final decision on them.</p>

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<p>In the most basic sense, rankings are like movie reviews. They define and examine important facets of a product from a certain perspective, and offer the customer an opportunity to do the same. Would a questionable review keep me from seeing for myself? Probably not. Would that same review heighten my awareness of a possible shortcomings, and generally make me a better consumer? Definitely.</p>

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<p>"Bingo!" to Carolyn & OrangeBlossom.</p>

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<p>A better way to look at colleges will be to look at their common data set.</p>

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<p>This thread pops up every two weeks or so.</p>

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<p>Cavalier302 -</p>

<p>Yes, and in this case it's probably a sign that our new member Coastparent (welcome!! :)) is beginning that period of soul-searching and angst that many of us have been "enjoying" for so long. ;)</p>

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<p>Coastparent -</p>

<p>The answer to your question is, "It all depends on what you're looking for."</p>

<p>If prestige is important then certainly rank matters. However, I would counsel that fit (academic, financial, social, overall demographic and geographic...whatever floats your boat) is most important. Your investigation would amount to lots of research and reading, talking with counselors, adcoms, and professors, campus visits, thoughtful contacts on this board. There may be several that would work, but perhaps one or two would stand out (and hopefully one would be a safety you love). Our family isn't one that's placing a top student (a good student, top athlete), so our search may have been quite different from yours, but we tried not to get hung up on rankings. In fact, it may come to pass that our child will matriculate at the less competitive school (he was admitted to several more competitive ones) and academically more supportive but less challenging (higher ranked for its category though) because it's a nicer place with a better vibe, more mentoring and personal attention, that I believe in the long run will offer my child a much better all around education.</p>

<p>I think the bottom line is that while you build you list with scientific fact and gut feelings, your final pick is with your heart.</p>

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<p>I'm probably an odd one. Our family did not have a hold of rankings, nor have my kids ever viewed any rankings and are not generally aware of them. The idea of rankings is something I first read about on CC AND the emphasis on them, I might add. </p>

<p>My kids were good students and had long range goals of going to a "good college". But "good college" is more of a fuzzy definition. Nobody knew the rank of the college or all these other data points people analyze on CC to the Nth degree. They wanted to be at challenging schools with motivated student bodies and likely gravitated toward schools they've heard of before. They wanted to get into the best colleges they could but I don't know that "best" was so defined by any specific pieces of data or surely not by rankings. I guess there was an overall aura of reputation of "that's a good school" but not that much more than that. I don't think it broke down so much into an order. There were more like piles of "very hard to get into", "hard but possible", "easier for a kid like me". They were certainly aware of the break down of reach/match/safety and the general information you get in a big college directory as to the admit rate, SAT range, stuff like that, but not as aware of actual rankings that exist. They were not caught up in that at all. Once they found so called "good schools" and a balanced list (though for my younger one, all the programs were considered reaches by the nature of the BFA admissions process)....and they truly did look into less prestigious schools and explored them fully and considered a range...they broke their own college list more into "favorites", "like a lot but not most favorite" and "least favorite but like enough to go there". These little "piles" were not necessarily by order of prestige or selectivity. For instance, my older D got into PENN as a Ben Franklin Scholar and in the end, did not consider going but did consider possibly attending Tufts or Smith and she truly was WAY more into fit than any ranking. She definitely was not of the attitude that "I want to go to an Ivy." I once showed her student posts on CC and she could not identify with many of the ways a lot of students here think about prestige. She wouldn't even know the rankings. I am not even up on them. I would have to look now and even find out if the school she ended up at, Brown, is ranked above or below Penn as I don't even know! So, that's how my kids went about it. </p>

<p>I would say that for my kids, it was a combination of FIT and also wanting a "good college" so sort of one that is known to be good or selective overall but not so specific as to how it is ranked or every little detail of what goes into the rank. They've never seen a ranking. Actually in my younger D's case, there is no ranking for BFA programs in Musical Theater, but some are more well known than others. Thus, reputation or selectivity played a role but it wasn't so specifically delineated in order. And in the end, they went by their personal favorites, which were not necessarily ordered the way they would be if ranked.</p>

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<p>coastparent welcome. They've laid it out for you quite well so I'll just add that my D has big future plans involving medical research (probably means she'll major in Russian Lit) so in doing her due-diligence she looked at the level of UG research being done . We found it easy to research that component on the college specific web-sites. Secondly , did the UG experience at that college yield the graduate or medical school placements that she wanted? and what was their particular take on pre-med education? Weed-out? Committee approved apps only? Again, not that hard to find. </p>

<p>It's that whole other thing. That feel, fit, and finish thing that has to be experienced that we found difficult to accurately gather info on. For example, and contrary to what I would have thought , my daughter's recent trip to Hendrix yielded the comment "Well dad, I don't know what all the guidebooks are talking about. This place doesn't seem that out there or liberal to me." Again, she's visited 50 schools or so. Maybe more and is quite the veteran. That's where the real work comes in. Good luck.</p>

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<p>Susan hits upon a very important point: every student wants to go to a "good college." And, every parent wants to send their student to a "good college."</p>

<p>The question, of course, is how do you determine which schools are "good colleges." The easy way - seized upon by many - it to simply rely on a published ranking to define which schools are the "good" ones.</p>

<p>A better way - although a more time-consuming and possibly less assuring way - is to begin with your or your child's needs, learning style, preferences and define what will make a "good college" for THEM.
Once you have a sense of that, you can then move on to researching different options in light of those individual criteria, and comparing the real differences between schools. Because, frankly, there are differences between ALL schools, and a school at the top of the rankings may or may not be a "good college" for a particular individual, even if the next school up or down is. </p>

<p>Unfortuanately, the second way of finding a "good college" isn't easy, and it takes dedication and a willingness to consider a variety of options and research their pro's and con's. It's much easier to just look at a published ranking and say "these are the "good colleges" and pick from the list." Much harder to say "here's what will make a good college for me or my child. Now, how do I find them?" To do that, you have to get educated on how to evaluate schools and departments, you have to be willing to admit your or your child's weaknesses, you have to be willing to consider a wide spectrum of choices. </p>

<p>One article I like that suggests some ways (but definitely NOT all) ways of evaluating colleges is here: <a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2005/08/19/schrum%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2005/08/19/schrum&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Again, I'm not saying that rankings don't have a place in the search process. They do. As I said, everyone will check the rankings at some point. But in and of themselves they don't tell you anything about whether a college or university is going to be a "good college" for you or your child.</p>

<p>And, the article above isn't the full picture either. I can think of about 10 more things my daughter and I looked at in deciding whether schools she was looking at were "good colleges" for her and I've probably discussed about 20 or 30 more things to consider in my personal blog on the college search process. Ultimately, however, it all has to come back to the CHILD and using their needs/preferences/learning styles to define what makes a "good college."</p>

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<p>I couldn't agree more with Carolyn. I didn't mention at all how my kids found the schools that they did but it was through developing their own criteria of what THEY wanted in a college and then they tried to find colleges that fit that criteria but with a range of selectivity. Yes, they preferred a more selective school because that was one of their criteria as they are very good students and feel that makes it a better fit in terms of the kinds of students who attend and the level of challenge in the school itself. But that was merely just ONE criteria. They didn't need rankings to find that, however. They could examine the admit rate and stats of admitted students, etc. But they had many other personal criteria that would differ from kid to kid. Picking a school just based on prestige is not going to yield a true fit. That's why when I see some college lists on CC where a kid has every Ivy on the list, etc., I know they were not using other criteria. For example, one of my kids wanted the college to have a ski team at any level and an architecture major in case she decided to study that which was her leaning at that point. She had other criteria of course but those are two that differ from the next kid. Harvard, for example, was out due to no architecture major. Might be a great school but didn't fit. </p>

<p>I agree with Carolyn on the importance of fully researching and exploring the schools on your list....and of course, a visit REALLY helps. I hope others do not think a kid has to visit 50 schools like Curm's D did (wow, I am impressed by that number!!). My oldest child visited 10 and applied to 8. My youngest visited the 8 that she applied to. I think there needs to be lots of research first to narrow the list somewhat, then visit, then narrow accordingly. </p>

<p>I also see some who pick colleges solely by reputation and their own stats do not fit, believe it or not. I get clients who have very prestigious colleges on their wish list and they are NO WHERE NO HOW remotely qualified. I do wonder how they came up with the lists. My kids looked right at the college directories with the selectivity and stats information and came up with reach, match, safety....that is even without the full exploration of true fit but just on the basis of qualifications alone. Amazingly, some ignore that very basic aspect of college selection! </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>wzzz ....this thread is talking of rankings of colleges, such as in USNews, etc.....and NOT class rankings of students in high school.</p>

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<p>My opinion on rankings is that you pay more generally for the higher ranked institutions and yes a degree from those schools may initially open doors for you---but it's the individual that makes the difference.</p>

<p>Let me give you an example from my family. My brother attended undergrad and med school at our state university (which is not a highly ranked, prestigious institution). When he entered residency he was one of 12 residents--10 from ivies and 2 from state schools. When board results came in, 6 did not pass boards (all were from the ivies) and my brother scored in 99th percentile.</p>

<p>Again, it is the individual who determines the quality---not the institution.</p>

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<p>Mkm...I very much agree with you that it is the individual, not the school from where they came, that is the kdy to success. </p>

<p>One thing I also never thought of, nor did my kids, is a sentiment I often read in student posts on CC...that going to a prestigious college will yield a better income, etc. My kids did not think in those terms. They wanted a more selective college more for reasons that that kind of school fit them better. It didn't have to do with where would this name college get me but more that they wanted a challenging and selective school for its own sake, for their college experience. A school with a name might open some doors, this is true, but in the end, it really is about the student herself. Those who excel and achieve and are driven, will succeed, no matter which school they attend. Picking a more selective school should have to do more with the challenge of the academics or motivation of the student body and so forth, more than as a ticket to something else.</p>

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<p>I agree soozievt. All 3 of my children opted for smaller, private colleges or universities based on things such as class sizes and majors offered.</p>

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<p>Rankings, Schmankings! Hey, that reminds me of a book the OP might want to read: Harvard Schmarvard. I think it was by Jay Mathews, but if I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will jump in and correct me. I enjoyed reading through the list of 100 colleges that are "better than you think they are," not because I agreed with every one on the list, but it did bring some schools into the picture that merited a look.</p>

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<p>I think there are two career paths where the ranking/prestige of your school (and/or especially grad school) can often make a significant difference: 1. Prominent government positions, and 2. Academic positions at high end universities and research institutes.</p>

<p>Look at the degrees of the Supreme Court justices or Cabinet secretaries and you will find they are rather top-heavy with Ivy League and other top schools. It's not a coincidence. Her tier 3 education was one of the many faults thrown at Harriet Miers when she was up for the Supreme Court. It's not the reason she was turned away, but it certainly was ammo to use against her.</p>

<p>Similarly, look at the schools where faculty at HYPSM got their educations, and again you'll see that the top schools are heavily represented. Not that you can't get to the top of academic world from a lesser school. It certainly happens -- Linus Pauling got his education at Oregon State and James Watson at Indiana. But having a degrees from a high-end school is certainly a plus if you are pursuing an academic career.</p>

<p>However, if your career goal is to be a local doctor in private practice or a local assistant DA, it won't make one bit of difference whether you went to HYPSM or to State U.</p>

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<p>What also happens, Coureur, is that there is a bigger pool of very talented and promising students at the more selective and presitigious colleges and so it also stands to reason that there are more of these graduates in some of these fields because this is where lots of them came from. Of course there are very smart and promising candidates from every institution but there are just more of these types at the very selective colleges. </p>

<p>Also when one peruses a resume, sure, if there is a very selective school listed on it, the reader will already have an impression that this is a pretty smart person or some such. Now, there is likely just as smart of a person from some unknown college who is capable of whatever it is that the resume is applying for, but that person may have to prove it from the outset whereas the first person has that somewhat as a given in the reader's mind. Both are capable and just as employable. There is a little "edge" at first look, however. When I was just in my 20's and was looking to teach college as an adjunct in this rural state, I feel pretty sure that I at least got to the interview stage because my graduate degree from Harvard gave them reason to take a look and it was NOT a common degree in these parts whereas it was not such a biggy in Boston (lots of those around!). So, yes, it can open doors. And in the case of my younger child, who goes to one of the the better known BFA programs in her field, I imagine the name on the resume gives a second look (again, doesn't get you the job) and there is also networking to be had and so forth. So, there is value to that. </p>

<p>That said, I don't think rankings are important. I think enrolling in a school that is the best fit according to SEVERAL personal criteria is very important and that within that framework, one often may opt to go to one of the more selective colleges from one's options. I just can't imagine getting into the finer details of just where that school RANKS. But yes, reputation as a selective college is important to many who have worked toward that goal and this was a factor for my children as well. But rankings? Not so much. I am sure that if they got into two very selective schools, for example, and one was ranked 9th and one was ranked 15th (totally hypothetical as we are not well read with rankings in our family), and they felt that the one ranked 15th fit them better, they'd go with that. But overall, they'd have gone with those two schools perhaps over their option to attend their safety that was ranked 40th. So, I am not denying that selectivity or reputation mattered as ONE of their criteria, mostly due to even THAT aspect meaning a better fit for them academically, but it wasn't due to which would get them a better job and certainly not down to the nitty gritty of rankings but more as a general "category" of going to a selective school.</p>