<p>nngmm, while med/law/grad school admissions is data it should not be used to guage the quality of education received. The reason is that the calibre of the graduating seniors were determined 4 years prior during the admission process.</p>
<p>The only longitudinal study that I am aware of which utilized a large base of data and compared students attending a varity of colleges was done by Krueger and Dale. Quoting from a review of this study, "Kreuger and Dale studied what happened to students who were accepted at an Ivy or a similar institution, but chose instead to attend a less sexy, "moderately selective" school. It turned out that such students had, on average, the same income twenty years later as graduates of the elite colleges. Krueger and Dale found that for students bright enough to win admission to a top school, later income "varied little, no matter which type of college they attended." In other words, the student, not the school, was responsible for the success."</p>
<p>With that conclusion, a student accepted to Swarthmore but choosing to attend PennState(a college included in the Krueger and Dale data base) would be as likely to be admitted to med/law/grad schools.</p>
<p>Having attended both Ohio State and Cornell and then spending a long career as a university instructor, I concluded long ago that the differences in the quality of education between colleges CAN be far less than people realize. At a less selective state university there are literally hundreds of courses offered every semester which are are of the same calibre as the similar course offered at a great LAC like Swarthmore. While some students may avoid these, the top calibre students tend to seek them out.</p>
<p>originaloog, could you please give the top three factors you used to reach the conclusion "the differences in the quality of education between colleges CAN be far less than people realize."? </p>
<p>I know that will be true in terms of peers. Because I am sure one could find at least 10 students on any campus that are the very best. I could image that 10 good friends are enough for one person.</p>
<p>It's my understanding that art professors are paid as well as any other professor on campus, of equivalent time at the intstitution...i think they'd pitch a fit if that weren't the case.</p>
<p>Generally speaking, the profs in areas that are well compensated in the "outside world" are also better compensated within academia, fits or no. The university is competing, to various degrees, with business for the talent. Profs in several disciplines can also consult for additional revenue.</p>
<p>As has been stated before, it's a different decision for each family based, mostly, on geography & personal finances.</p>
<p>I have many colleagues in Florida whose children are taking advantage of the Bright Futures Scholarship program for free tuition at UF, UCF or USF--a sweet deal indeed.</p>
<p>For me, it's definitely a case of a learning curve & determining value. D1 applied to State U. & was accepted, but was also accepted to schools like BU and UMiami with nice scholarships, but the original cost was jacked up so high (not even factoring in travel expenses, which would have been exorbitant) that even with a half-tuition break, the bottom line was still thousands more than State U. She ended up attending Adjacent State U costing, after scholarship, slightly more than State U., and will be graduating next year and hopefully going to med school. All in all, debt to be sure, but money well spent.</p>
<p>D2 will be a matriculating HS senior, and has decided she wants to stay close, within 3 hours or so. Okey dokey then, I'm not going to argue. Here's where the learning curve comes in. We've targeted the best state schools and private ones geographically, weeding out ones that are known to be scholarship-stingy and have gone to work setting up visits. We'll narrow it down to 5 or 6 by app time in the fall, and she'll be going for every merit-based scholarship available at those schools. </p>
<p>Right now her first-choice school is UW-Madison after a visit to the frozen tundra there, but we'll see in a few months after some more visits, and potential major changes too! But the main point is, like anything else, to do comparison shopping to determine value rather than accede immediately to a kid's idea of a 'dream' school.</p>
<p> I have deleted a series of posts that are focused on the appreciation rate/investment value of real estate. If posters wish to discuss this issue, please start another thread for it. Please keep this thread to the original topic, "Should you incur substantial debt for dream school or even pay the "dream" tuition? "</p>
<p>I think you are right to think about costs and return. While parents want the best for their children, they should not jeopardize their own financial security, especially with retirement funds. Many state u's offer fine educations, and many students will thrive. Especially check out honors programs.</p>
<p>OK, sorry but could someone please explain one of the things I have difficulties in understanding. it seems that a number of kids attend a community college and then transfer to very prestigious schools from which they graduate, having only paid for 2 years dream college rather than four. Is this really possible, and is this very rare or quite common? Or maybe CC has given me a false appreciation of the number of students with 4.0 GPA trying to transfer to Ivies, or top universities or LACs.</p>
<p>Well, Harvard just announced it is accepting NO transfers for next year. Other Ivies accept only a few--it's a long shot, at best.</p>
<p>But if your "dream" school is State Flagship U which is still out of your price range, perhaps because of boarding costs, you can save money by living at home and attending the local CC for a couple of years. Good grades there will certainly get you into the State Uni.</p>
<p>I graduated Cornell with little debt. (I went first to comm. college, then transferred to one of the NY state supported schools as a NY resident). Although I am not working, 20 years later, it is still a lot of fun to say "Cornell". It always surprises people... (and unlike Notre Dame graduates, I don't offer this information unless asked! And if I don't care for the person I definitely don't share the transfer part!!!:) Besides, Cornell throws GREAT class reunions. However, that being said I don't know if I want to spend $50K per yr on my HS kids...</p>
<p>
[quote]
it seems that a number of kids attend a community college and then transfer to very prestigious schools from which they graduate, having only paid for 2 years dream college rather than four. Is this really possible, and is this very rare or quite common?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Our principal recently described this as not a particularly attractive option to pursue if it is not necessary, as the drop-out rate for community college students is in the 30-50% range (according to her - I don't have any sources to back this up.) Just something to keep in mind.</p>
<p>I think the dropout rate from CCs is skewed. It's true that there's a high percentage (I've heard higher numbers than you posted for some) of CC students who never go on to attain a 4 year degree but this is caused by several factors - </p>
<ul>
<li><p>A number of people at a CC have no intention of going on to a 4 yr degree - they might be older adults or even younger ones simply obtaining some specialized training or taking some classes for the fun of it.</p></li>
<li><p>A number of students at a CC aren't focused at all and are using it after HS to take some college classes but without direction or focus. After 3 years (if they last that long) many of them still won't be in a position to transfer to a 4 yr college and are taking a skattering of 1 or 2 classes per session.</p></li>
<li><p>There's a subset of CC students who are focused and intent on taking specific courses with the intent to transfer to a specific college after 2-3 years. Many of these students are doing so for financial, family, or other reasons including the chance of being able to transfer to a more selective U that they wouldn't have been accepted to otherwise. A fair amount of people use this option in California which has an excellent CC to UC or Cal State program. A number of people who might have been rejected from UCB/UCLA/UCSD or others as a HS freshman can do well at a CC and then transfer. Depending on the major, they might save money to boot although in some cases I think it can cost them money in the long run due to delayed entry into the workplace. A lot of people seem to ignore this factor.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>My boyfriend applied to UCLA (in-state) and was rejected. He has already been accepted to an honors program at a nearby CC, which guarantees that he will be accepted to UCLA if he completes all the requirements. It is a one-year program, and will end up saving him some money. He was disappointed that he won't get the freshman experience, but otherwise content with the situation.</p>
<p>Mafool: Not all universities allow profs to consult (mine doesn't).</p>
<p>Also with regard to doing 2 years at CC then trasnferring: D#1 went to Cook (a Rutgers college). Cook won't accept Cc courses, period, the end. So one has to be sure on's dream prestige name school will accpet all the cc credit before going this route (my alma mater didn't accept this either, the few kids who tried it had to retake or change majors to graduate in 4 years).</p>
<p>
[quote]
My boyfriend applied to UCLA (in-state) and was rejected. He has already been accepted to an honors program at a nearby CC, which guarantees that he will be accepted to UCLA if he completes all the requirements. It is a one-year program, and will end up saving him some money. He was disappointed that he won't get the freshman experience, but otherwise content with the situation.
[/quote]
That sounds like a good program. UCLA rejects many applicants even who have very high stats (as can be seen on the UCLA thread). Once there though, people from several different years are taking all kinds of classes so the fact that he transferred won't be noticed by others and probably won't be felt much by him. If he can live in transfer housing he even gets to have that 'campus' experience.</p>
<p>NJ_mother: Did not know that. Thank you. I don't know for a fact that S's college permits consulting, either. But mine did, and I, without thinking, made that assumption.</p>
<p>Clay Soul,
Admirable you are electing to pursue your interest in the arts. However, a few cautionary words. The universities have a bad habit of implying that everyone with an advanced arts degree (MFA,PHd etc) will be attaining a well paid professorship. Actually that's equivalent to a chimera hiding in the fog. Some, about 10% in the recent past, do attain these positions, but as noted the pay is often less than those in other fields. Additionally, many who do work as profs are cursed with the status of being adjuncts, which can be ok if one can become used to the uncertainty and periods of economic difficulty. Many in the arts, do end up in such as galleries, arts centers, PS teaching or etc rather than professorships.
As far as the concept that parents should incur substantial debt to ensure their kid goes to a flagship school. Gods no don't do it! It's already problematic or impossible for many to pay the debt load incurred at regular schools, let alone the toll for an elite school. And the financial shell game promoted by the loan companies and their government compadres can easily inflate a 'normal' student loan debt, over the term of its life, to a form of educated indentured or indebted servitude. For example many of us who are professors (supposedly living a privilaged life) struggle with paying the costs of our education. To the extent that some do little else but pay the loan tolls, avoiding such normal acts as buying homes or even considering marriage. And its not a condition limited to profs, the AMA has begged the government to restore deferments and loan forgiveness for doctors.
The whole situation of college costs, loans is a looming financial disaster, and it may eclipse the mess of such as Bear Stearns and the mortgage situation. Accordingly it might be better for parents to settle for more affordable schools, or even defer their kids education until some political action is taken to remedy the situations inherent to appalling college costs, and the debts incurred as a result. And the whole mess is something which the colleges, financial institutions and government will no longer be able to disguise. What happened with the mortgage mess, will soon occur within collegiate finances and the loan industry. And unfortunately the current trend is to bail out the corporate elite rather than the people caught in the backwash of inappropriate financial manipulations. Academia should never have become a wellspring of massive profits for any financial body, nor should academia and government be accessories to this cabal, but nonetheless it has happened. Until this is reformed, any parent incurring large debts for a kids education could be condemning themselves and their kids future for years. Simply put, don't do it.</p>
<p>I took on debt, got an MBA, and my starting salary was about 400% what I had made prior to my MBA. During the 10 years it took me to pay off my loans, I bought a house, married, had two children, and continued to advance in my career.</p>
<p>Not all educational debt is bad. Not all degrees are created equal. Not everyone is willing to move or get transfered for work, or only take a minimal maternity leave. I was willing to do all those things; my degree continues to pay dividends on a weekly basis. Simply put, I have had a better career with more money and more interesting work than someone who does what I do without an MBA (it is not a requirement in my field... HR... where many people have a Master's in counseling or something related.)</p>
<p>Some people are risk averse and that's fine- don't take on loans. Some people would not move for their jobs- and that's fine- you're probably not a good candidate for a lot of loans either. If you're planning on having kids in your 20's and would want a year or two off when you do... then don't take out educational loans.</p>
<p>If you're prepared to work in a focused way to pay off the loans while being able to move your life forward then go for it.</p>