Yes, but we would also need to see the number of students in each accepted class by undergrad institution, the admissions rate by each school, and the median GPA/MCAT score for accepted students by undergrad institutions to see if there is variability between undergrad schools.
The results I gave you were just the class averages, so the vast majority of the matriculating class hit both the GPA and MCAT benchmarks for that school. I consider hitting just one of the 2 benchmarks (GPA or MCAT) an extraordinary feat. At a minimum to be accepted, a Harvard student with a below average GPA probably have to do well on the MCAT and get a 94-99th percentile score. How many people are capable of doing that? If they could, why would their GPA be subpar? That type of accepted applicant should have be rare exception for these schools, otherwise the inclusion of multiple students with lower stats would have significantly lowered the overall GPA/MCAT average.
Maybe, for lower tiered medical schools, there is a greater effect with admissions offices if you attend a prestigious university.
How are medical salaries these days? I would guess one would be 29-30 when residence is done. There are many years of lost income. Is it financially worthwhile? Or is it just a labor of love?
Many kids I know who were originally interested in medicine are just dropping off the pre-med track – these are very high achieving valedictorian type kids. So it is not inability to go through the process. Just a judgment that it is not worthwhile at least for financial reasons.
Not necessarily. The figures are averages so there are some above and some below. If a higher number of below average GPA/MCAT accepted students are from the more elite schools, then that indicates an advantage. While I doubt a 3.5 GPA Harvard grad will get into JHU, if the median accepted Harvard students GPA/MCAT were 3.9/520 and the median score of less selective undergrad schools were higher, it would indicate an Harvard advantage as well. We just don’t know without a by undergrad institution breakdown.
How do you define successful? Harvard was mentioned earlier. In the most recent Harvard senior survey, the median self-reported cumulative GPA of Harvard seniors was ~3.9. The overwhelming majority of Harvard students had high enough grades to support med school admission, not just the top few % of students. Were the below average kids who graduated with only a 3.8x GPA at Harvard still successful? Or were they in the “often doesn’t go well” group?
Instead of only 25% of students receiving A’s regardless of college, the more selective the private college, the larger portion of students tend to get A’s. That is A’s often seem meant to reflect sufficient understanding of material, rather than an indicator of being in the top x% compared to peers at college.
Even if A’s were only given to top x% of students regardless of what portion of students master material, looking at how your SAT/ACT test scores compare to peers at that college in isolation is a very poor way to estimate whether a particular student will be in the high GPA group. If a particular student thinks they have a weaker background, then rather than look at how test scores compare to peers, a student might look at whether the college has good support for students with backgrounds like their own.
Continuing with the Harvard example, they do not throw everyone in the deep end and see who can handle the work and who drops out. Instead Harvard has all students take placement tests to help identify students with stronger/weaker backgrounds, particularly in math/science. The students often have different starting points and levels in initial freshman math/science courses, allowing students with weaker backgrounds the review the areas they are lacking and catch up before moving to more advanced courses. There are also additional support networks with a lot of hand holding, reducing the portion of kids who fall through the cracks. This type of support is not reflected in looking at how your test score compares to peers at the college.
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Medicine is not a growth industry, so overall salaries haven’t increased much.
The values are extremely close to the maximum value and by definition 50% are above or below the calculated mean, there really isn’t any room to improve the mean value. But there is plenty of room to bring it down.
The original table where I copied the results stated these were averages for the school, not medians.
A value 3.9 for self-reported cumulative GPA is extremely high, regardless whether it represents the mean or median for the group! The students at MIT and U Chicago are definitely taking the harder route to grad school.
Kind of makes you wonder what the letter grades B, C, D, and F are for at Harvard.
Salaries vary by specialty and geographic location. When I could finally afford a house, I found a spec home nearing completion and the builder suggested I contact an interior designer to help. Their hourly rate was higher than mine BY A LOT. I decided to forgo and do myself. I have been in practice over 20 years and have had 2 pay raises (maybe 100/paycheck before taxes?), don’t recall. Add in the non-compete clauses (can’t practice anywhere in a 40-mile range so unless I move cities I have to accept my salary), RVUs and productivity from administration means even longer hours with no pay increase. Where I live, the physician’s houses are the least expensive - the beautiful homes are business, lawyers, investment banking, oil/gas. But there are definitely physicians who make a lot more than I do. PAs and NPs do not have to sign the non-compete clauses interestingly. Considering that PAs have less schooling and start making money years before physicians, this is an alternative that folks should strongly consider, IMO.
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Averages/means do not necessarily have 50% above and 50% below – that is by definition median values. But my point would still hold true using avg GPA/MCAT scores to see if there is variability in scores of accepted students between colleges
We come across a potentially similar situation in undergrad admissions when we look at legacies. Accepted legacies have similar or maybe even slightly higher academic indexes (an index using GPA and test scores) then other accepted students, so some conclude “no advantage”. But if you look at acceptance rates of students within the same AI decile, legacies have a significantly higher acceptance rate (see findings on ALDC’s at Harvard). From that point of view, legacy is a clear boost. Even assuming every accepted student at JHU had a 3.95/522, if the acceptance rate for Harvard students with those stats were 95% and it were only 70% for kids from Ohio State, there is an advantage of Harvard over Ohio State. Like I said, we just can’t tell from overall averages.
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No major disagreement from me. But if Data10’s assertion is that the median GPA for a graduating Harvard student is 3.9, then one can easily argue the boost in medical school acceptance rates for Harvard applicants is due to the sky high grade inflation and not from the name of the school.
Also makes you wonder what Maitland Jones would do if he was teaching his organic chemistry course at Harvard. To my knowledge, there is no precursor class that can assess readiness and preparedness for taking organic chemistry.
While Harvard is an extreme example, nearly any highly selective private will have A being the most common grade, some Bs, and few C or lower grades. With COVID grades have been higher than in the past.
NYU is the subject of this thread. The latin cutoffs for being in top 30% at NYU was 3.75 for CAS. I’d expect the median grade at NYU is well in to the A-/A/A+ range. More selective private colleges than NYU tend to be above this level. For example, the corresponding latin cutoffs for Yale was 3.85 in 2019, before COVID related GPA increases. With COVID GPA increases, I expect the top 30% cumulative GPA would be at least 3.9 at Yale.
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According to the article, 60% of his class received an A or B. The remaining 40% received a C or worse, or they withdrew. If the median grade at NYU is in the A range, I think it’s reasonable to wonder whether Dr. Jones might be one of the toughest graders at NYU.
Also from what has been written about him, it’s hard to believe that he would ever give 90% of his class an A. He doesn’t seem to subscribe to the old adage, “When in Rome, do what the Romans do.”
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And therein lies the crux of the article - is he there to teach a class or be a check mark on someone’s path to medical school.
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What happens in “Rome” can’t be confined to “Rome” these days. Just as price inflation can’t be confined to only a few sectors of the economy, grade inflation can’t be confined to only a few institutions of higher learning. Price inflation will have dire consequences for the entire economy. So will grade inflation for the entire higher education sector (including medical schools), and this nation’s competitiveness. Not overnight, but eventually.
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In the face of grade inflation companies hiring kids will devise methods to get around the problem. I know companies that have had 9 hours of technical interviews for a summer internship.
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NYU is one of the most expensive schools and people pay that high price because they believe NYU will nurture the student and be their partner in reaching their goals. Also, most NYU pre meds are aiming for prestigious schools, and to get into those schools you need top grades.
MSAR posts the actual grade distribution for accepted students, and for NYU med school the median science gpa is 3.96, the bottom 25% is 3.9, the bottom 10% is 3.8. Let’s be honest if a student makes B’s in both semesters of organic chemistry their chances of getting into a prestigious med school are slim because of their gpa.
That’s why the students and parents find Maitland Jones unacceptable. Not only does he grade hard, but he also doesn’t nurture and help them reach their goal.
There isn’t a prestige bump in med school admissions for attending schools like NYU, but applicants from schools like NYU are generally more competitive. Someone who had the demographics, grades, test scores, ECs, essays, and LORs for an NYU school will be able to use those skills plus how they have improved while at NYU.
btw, the stats posted from undergrads include all medical schools (MD, DO, and international) while the MSAR data is only US MD programs.
With 6500 kids per batch, much nurturing is unlikely at NYU, Jones or no Jones.
It is not some cozy LAC
@1NJParent, you are correct. If a premed student does not do well in math (or ask they call it in the UK, maths), their chances of getting into medical school are lower. I would have to search out the article I remember.