"Silent Technical Privilege" (Slate article by MIT alum)

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
21

<p>@Hamletz stemming off from some of the other posters, your argument has plenty of flaws in reasoning. But I want to discuss your point about men being discriminated against. Obviously, there is discrimination against men in several cases, but as a high-school girl, it infuriates me when you basically brush aside the importance of this issue. I struggled for a long time to show people that I’m not incapable of doing the things I love (math, science, computers, the works). And even then, I am sometimes labeled as overbearing and intimidating because I have to push so hard to be heard. I would think next time before you make such a weighted statement.</p>

<p>And in terms to lack of equality in finances in a dating scene, I know a couple that has been together for more than a year, and they take turns paying for dates and outings. Why? Because they treat each other as equals. Neither feels entitled to dominance over the other, and it is only this sense of equality that will make it easier for both men and women to thrive in whatever they love to do. </p>

<p>I saw the original article on the MIT blogs, and I spent a lot of time thinking about it. The story about the girl interested in Comp Sci unsettled me, because I want to study Comp Sci, and I don’t want this kind of thing happening to me. =/</p>

22

<p>Thanks for posting this, mollie. It’s a great article and very much on point. </p>

<hr>

<p>Hamletz: </p>

<p>In almost all of your posts in this thread, you’ve a) raised an inflammatory point without sufficient substantiation, b) summarily dismissed and/or condescended to your interlocuters, and/or c) repeatedly said you don’t want to have the debate you continue to have. </p>

<p>While a) is annoying, b) and c) are much more problematic to me, because they are in fact intertwined with the essay in the OP. Essentially, what you’ve been doing, throughout this entire thread, is claiming the right to define the debate in the thread: to set its topics, borders, members, to decide what may be discussed, how it may be discussed, and by whom it may be discussed. </p>

<p>This has frankly been most conspicuous in your interactions with posters, like lidusha, whom you know or seem to suspect are women. When they have attacked your points, you have variously reformulated their attacks into a weaker form, reframed them as personal attacks, and/or dismissed them as unsuited for this venue. </p>

<p>In other words, you have been practicing the very privilege that was the focus of the article in the OP. I don’t know if you are unaware that you have been doing this or do not care that you have been doing this. But either way, that is what you are doing, and it is especially ironic and sad for that to happen in this thread given the context of the OP. </p>

<p>Please note that this is not a personal attack, but rather an attack on your mode of argumentation, which I think is weak, flawed, unconvincing, and wrong for these reasons. </p>

<p>Upthread, you said “I agree I need to work on my communication skills - otherwise I wouldn’t have caused a misunderstanding.” I am glad to see this kind of insight and I quite frankly think you should follow your own advice. If, as seems to be the case in this thread, there is a persistent gap between what you mean and what you are understood to say, then it is your fault, full stop. The best way for you to work on your communications skills, and to stop the ongoing public conversation that you claim to be interested in preventing, is to walk away from the thread for awhile. Gender, privilege, and so on are complex topics, and it’s hard to speak intelligently and thoughtfully about them under the best of circumstances. If you already have an intuition that you are <em>not</em> speaking intelligently and well about them, you should probably <em>stop speaking</em> until you’ve figured it out. </p>

<p>This is an uncharacteristically blunt and critical post from me. I am trying to get a point across that a) I think others have made but you have not accepted and b) that you yourself have made but not followed. Please understand that I am posting this in good faith and with the best of intentions - although I understand if it doesn’t feel like that from your side.</p>

23

<p>If none of my other posts on this thread have seemed clear, then hopefully, this one will. :)</p>

<p>To all concerned: I apologize for any offense I may have caused anyone, because when I initially posted, it was not my intention to offend. Clearly, lack of effective communication on my part instead did the opposite, and stuff like “bigot” and lidusha’s open resentment of me didn’t help, which only made me want to justify myself. (btw, not sure what I was on when I made those first few posts - I’d never think I wrote them now) Although lidusha probably already dislikes me for this, there are no hard feelings toward her on my side, and I hope she will understand my position. In the meantime, I wish her best of luck with her endeavors.</p>

<p>I am willing to learn - and I believe that MIT is a great place to do that.</p>

<p>Now I’ll take MITChris’s advice and end here.</p>

24

<p>Here is another subset to throw into the mix. I am a retired veterinarian. When I went to vet school in the late 80’s, classes were just reaching the 50/50 male/female mix. Previously it was male dominated(almost exclusive in the 60’s/70’s). Today, 80% of veterinary students are female. I saw one class with 104/106 female. There are programs actively recruiting men to apply to vet school, though the high cost and low pay is usually cited as the cause of their reluctance to apply. It is an interesting, ongoing study into a profession that has swung 180 degrees, for better of for worse.</p>

25

<p>Going back to the original post, I read it and thought it most interesting. I hope instructors at MIT and elsewhere will re-examine their prejudices and give every student the opportunity to prove themselves.</p>

26

<p>The article OP cited reminded me of this one just a few months ago from the school across the river</p>

<p><a href=“Harvard Business School Case Study: Gender Equity - The New York Times”>Harvard Business School Case Study: Gender Equity - The New York Times;

<p>Which noted that women graduate students at Harvard business school were consistently graded lower by professors - until they brought in independent trained observers and showed the professors the indisputable evidence that the women’s class work was at least comparable to the men. But male swagger, the “good old boy” network and ostentatious displays of wealth had created an impression that was difficult to counter.</p>

<p>It turns out that gender, status and perceived competence are complicated indeed, and methods to address inequality will need to be data based and creative. </p>

<p>Great that this is being considered so thoughtfully. More data from MIT would be wonderful!</p>

27

<p>What kind of data would you want, 2prepmom?</p>

28

<p>Anecdote illustrating the behavior described in this paper:
Our HS has a good, and very difficult Latin program. 2 yrs ago, our HS placed two students into the top 10 at the State finals. An Asian male from our school earned first place and DD was third. At the awards ceremony both of their achievements were recognized and the young man is also, appropriately, given an additional award as the top student for the school. </p>

<p>The following year, our HS again traveled to the State finals and placed two students in the top 10. This time DDs paper earned 2nd place and a different Asian male finished 4th. At the awards ceremony, they were both recognized for placing in the top 10, but they skipped over DD and the Asian male who placed 4th was given the additional award as top student, “Because of his amazing level of effort and determination” and the presenter talked about how often he comes to visit and ask questions outside of class.</p>

<p>In contrast to that, DD had some difficulty understanding her math teachers explanations one year and often went in early to ask questions and make sure she understood details. (As the Asian male had done in Latin). At conferences did the teacher describe DDs amazing level of effort and determination? No. The teacher characterized DDs visits as demonstrating a need for her to work more independently and learn to figure things out for herself. Far from the class award the Asian male received for the same behavior!</p>

<p>The point is that, as Mollie’s article describes, there are many of these discouraging messages being sent to women and girls, and while I am sure they are unintended, they suggest that these teacher’s behavior and assessments are guided by their unspoken belief that the top students are Asian males, and that females are not really as talented.</p>

29

<p>@MITChris</p>

<p>While I think of MIT as more of a meritocracy than many institutions, data would be interesting:</p>

<p>1) Is there a difference in grading between male and female students (maybe start with CS courses at first?) If there is a difference, is it with intro or advanced courses? Only some teachers? Does the difference in grades correlate to any test score differences among the incoming applicants? Is the difference based on in-class tests and projects, or on more subjective “class participation”?
2) Is there a perceived difference in status or competence between male and female students/teachers (anonymous student rating but gender of respondent should be included) by major, by year, however you want to ask.
3) Is there a different rate of degree completion among students of different genders? If so, what do students think is the reason?
4) what do faculty think of gender influences on academic advancement in their departments?</p>

<p>I’m sure there are many other ways to study the role of gender, status and achievement.</p>

30

<p>

</p>

<p>Was this award for classroom performance in Latin, both latin classroom performance and for the state competition, or for being the top student in all subjects? </p>

<p>Was your daughter better in class than the Asian guy?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>How would you know from your anecdote, or the one cited in the article, whether race was the issue or whether it was gender?</p>

<p>There is also the issue of having two different teachers. Maybe for the math teacher going to office hrs is a sign of weakness, while for the latin teacher, it means that the student is committed.</p>

31

<p>College Alum,</p>

<p>Answer to Q #1 (What award?).Top Latin student. </p>

<p>Answer to Q #2. (Was she better?) Honestly, idk, and did not assert that. The teachers may select whoever they wish. However, the rationale provided the first year was changed the following year. With the same rationale, DD would have won. To her credit, DD does not really care about these things, but as a parent, you notice them. </p>

<p>Answer to Q #3. I do not know whether she is "better, " and I am not asserting that she was. I am just saying that in their minds, both years, the Asian Male was the best, and they had to shift the criteria/rationale to make that happen. To me this seems quite similar to Dr. Mollie’s article. It seems odd that a person writing the #2, and #3 examination in a populous State in consecutive years is not awarded the Top student in their school either year, and both times it was awarded to an Asian Male over a female.</p>

<p>Answer to Q #4 (race or gender). Frankly, I do not think either one was consciously an issue. I believe that they did what they honestly believed was correct, and we never complained about it at all. Additionally, the question may create a false choice.d A person may believe that Asian Males are superior to other to students that do not have that profile. They may not have the same view of Asians in general or Males in general.</p>

<p>Statement #5. That is true. However, it is interesting that there is a pattern of viewing Asian Males in a certain light, and viewing females more negatively in similar situations, as if the Asian Males involved had some sort of assumed privilege in the minds of the decision makers. I would add that none of this is the students fault at all, and that certainly, a sample size of 3 is not large enough to determine anything, but the behavior does seem suspect, and quite consistent with the theme of the article. </p>

<p>Your individual questions are all reasonable. </p>

<p>I have the impression from the aggregate of those questions that you are skeptical about whether this sort of privilege described in the OP’s article actually occurs at all or is just imagined. Is that the point you are trying to make, or is there something else?</p>

<p>In my mind, individual instances such as the the anecdote I described are plausibly coincidental; however, the weight of combined instances, from many different individuals indicates that, there are definitely times when Asian Males are the beneficiary of positive assumptions that females are less likely to do receive. Particularly when decisions are completely qualitative (and therefore subject to the decision makers preexisting beliefs), or when the criteria can be shifted, as in the example I provided. </p>

<p>What are your thoughts?</p>

32

<p>

I think it can be either or both. </p>

<p>There’s currently a storm brewing at NIH, as they decide how to deal with some troubling findings that have come from recent investigations: that female PIs are less likely to be funded than males, that black PIs are less likely to be funded than white, that younger PIs are less likely to be funded than older. This is clearly a self-perpetuating problem, since young/female/person-of-color applicants who don’t win the funding game don’t get the opportunity to do important work in the future that might help them secure funding, and they leave science.</p>

<p>From [the</a> most high-profile recent report](<a href=“http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6045/1015]the”>http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6045/1015):

</p>

<p>I don’t think it’s always (or primarily) as a result of intentional malice on the part of study section panel members. It’s just that reviewers tend to reward the people who look like them.</p>

33

<p>

</p>

<p>Well, it was unclear that the criteria had actually changed from what you previously wrote. When they announce who the best student is at the assembly, is it possible they just say whatever nice and personal complement they can think of about the student they selected. If they actually get #1 in the state in the competition, they say that. If the student got #4 in the state competition but were the best student overall, maybe they just cite the person’s effort and diligence. My point is that the announcer’s comments about the winner don’t necessarily correspond with the criteria for the award. After all, in neither year was performance in class mentioned at the podium, and surely that was part of the criteria in at least the second year.</p>

<p>Maybe I’m wrong, but it was unclear to me. Perhaps it is something you sensed by being around the teacher.</p>

<p>If we’re dropping anecdotes, I do remember one Asian parent complaining that their guidance counselor kept suggesting their kid apply to MIT and not the ivies, this despite the fact that all of the kid’s awards were in the humanities. They couldn’t wrap their head around the fact that an Asian kid wouldn’t be interested in a tech education.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I believe it happens, but in pockets rather than universally, and is concentrated in certain fields. In other fields, I think you could go pretty far in your career, at least through grad school, without encountering it. Politics and everything attached to it become much more prominent when you enter the faculty sphere, so I could imagine that discrimination could be worse at that level. Software is one of the fields where there I think there is still tangible discrimination for women. I’m not surprised about the frat-boy mentality on Wall Street or at Harvard Business School, but I think the culture at MIT is pretty much the polar opposite of Harvard (and I think Harvard Business School is like Harvard on steroids.) I think you have to be careful about extrapolating what may happen in one community or another to make widespread conclusions about whether one group of people has to work twice as hard for the same result.</p>

<p>As far as my beliefs, I think if you are female you can expect to be graded fairly at MIT. I think the major high school competitions which make you an attractive candidate for MIT (e.g., math contests, Intel/Siemens, science olympiad (team), various test-based olympiads) are also fairly assessed, and I don’t think the boys get more attentive mentors to help them to do better on these competitions. I haven’t observed gender discrimination in graduate school either, but of course, I haven’t been everywhere. Perhaps it was only the schools at which I’ve done research.</p>

<p>If the MIT women on this forum want to cite examples in which they know or suspect they were treated unfairly, they are free to do so. I would actually be interested. If they don’t have such anecdotes, they should say so, because the picture that is being painted from this thread is that MIT is not a supportive place for females. I don’t think that’s accurate in the least.</p>

34

<p>College Alum314,</p>

<p>This may be just me, but I did not read the article as something that was uniquely an MIT issue. I read it as representative of the zeitgeist that we live in. That is why I saw my anecdote as relevant. I did not see the issue as MIT specific at all.</p>

<p>To me, the example that you gave illustrates a person making the same assumptions about Asian Males that the article illustrated.</p>

35

<p>

</p>

<p>No, I am just making an assumption that they didn’t blatantly change the rules of the award in order to give it to another Asian male. Perhaps you know for a fact what the criteria is. I would think knowing the relative performance in class would be a pretty important piece of information to know before you make claims that they gave the “best student” award to the wrong person because of some bias.</p>

36

<p>

As I have mentioned in the past, I do have such stories, though from graduate school, not from undergrad. (I did not experience discrimination based on my gender at MIT.) But I am easily connectable to my real-life identity, so the people in these stories are similarly identifiable – I would prefer not to tell them in public.</p>

<p>I did have a high school teacher tell me that going to MIT would be a waste of time for them and for me. It was common knowledge that he felt that women did not make good science students or good scientists.</p>

37

<p>

</p>

<p>I don’t think it’s accurate, but I also don’t think that’s what this thread has said. I think MIT is a very supportive environment for young women, particularly in comparison to other places, i.e. not just/necessarily peer institutions, but like, society in general. For example, when I go home and sometimes hear (male) high school classmates casually refer to “girl logic” to mean “stupid and irrational” I cringe because I am so utterly unused to that kind of dismissive bigotry where I live and work every day. </p>

<p>mollie said above that she didn’t experience any discrimination at MIT. I obviously can’t make that kind of statement (because I am male), and lidusha, piper, or others may have had other experiences. </p>

<p>I will say that I’m fairly confident the number of dudes at MIT who haven’t had their ass kicked (intellectually, physically, whatever) by MIT women and learned right quick to drop their prejudice is small, and I’m very confident that MIT is a much more supportive environment than most others I’ve been in, including where I went to undergrad.</p>

38

<p>

</p>

<p>Mollie, if you know you are being treated unfairly because of your gender, don’t you feel you have a responsibility to call these people out? Otherwise, it will just go on and on.</p>

<p>It does no good to say “society” discourages women, because it is not true of most people. But it is true of some people – and usually they are too insensitive to figure it out themselves. You are a young woman of privilege, and if not yet powerful, certainly on track to get there. The title of the article was “Silent Technical Privilege,” and if you, a soon-to-be Harvard PhD stay silent, who will speak up?</p>

<p>It is one thing to rake Hamlet, a 17 year-old MIT prefrosh, over the coals and it is another to have the courage to confront the discrimination at its source.</p>

39

<p>^An actual Harvard PhD, now. :slight_smile: I graduated last year, and am now in the first year of my postdoc.</p>

<p>I agree that prejudice should be called out, and I try not to shy away from it. But there are costs to me in terms of my career in doing so to someone who is not my peer, and none of these incidents have involved my peers or people more junior than me. The incidents I’ve experienced have been with people who enjoy significantly more privilege than I do – tenured Harvard professors. Calling those people out by name, or naming them by their relationship to me, would be done at a cost to myself that I’m not willing to bear.</p>

<p>My goal is to have discussions, and to advocate for my position, and maybe even to educate. I don’t want to rake anyone over the coals, particularly because I don’t believe most discrimination is malicious by intent. But I think it’s helpful for everyone to become more mindful of their own biases.</p>

40

<p>

</p>

<p>Whoaaa, I think I missed this! Congratulations!</p>