Skipping a grade in a HS subject--advantage or not?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hi--
Thanks to all the wonderful info I've accessed here, it looks like my son (entering 9th grade) might have a chance to test out of his freshman math (it's honors algebra II and honors geometry). He's already taken 1/2 a year of each in 8th grade. He could probably do a review book over the summer and skip to pre-calc in 9th.</p>

<p>I've read about other students (here) doing it,and it sounds like such a wonderful opportunity to move ahead at a more natural (faster) pace and explore higher-level math via local college courses.</p>

<p>But--I'm worried that it will put undue pressure on son during first year of HS. He's interested somewhat in the testing out idea, although a bit apprehensive.</p>

<p>Didn't know if there were any pros/cons that anyone else had experienced? Would it be better to get solid As in honors courses than try to skip ahead? (this is what a guidance counselor told us, today). Trying to give him opportunity to stretch, but not over-stress!</p>

<p>Thanks <em>much</em> for any thoughts!</p>

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<p>from the point of a student...why would you do this? even if your son thinks this a good idea now, he might not think it's such a good idea 4 years later when all his friends are slacking off in calc class and he is going to the local college to do something that he can't take seriously anymore
i skipped precalc this year because i moved and already covered half the year and it was one of the dumbest things i've ever done. I had no trouble in calc class but I always asked myself what's the point (and i am definitely not taking any math classes next year)
unless your son is really, really interested in math and will definitely pursue it in college, don't send him on a track that he may or may not like down the road</p>

3

<p>I don't know about your school's pre-calc course, but the one at my D's high school was mostly a souped up algebra 2 and geometry course with a little bit of limits and intro calc thrown in at the end (which they didn't get to anyway). Her math schedule = 9th geometry/trig; 10th algebra 2; 11th Calculus AB. She didn't take any math classes at the local community college (scheduling concerns) in 12th grade but took Calculus BC (which was not so great because the AB teacher was better than the BC teacher, but oh well).</p>

<p>So why not move on and take pre-calc. It'll cover the algebra 2 and a bunch of geometry. The thing you have to watch out for is that you might have to backtrack sometimes to cover something your S may have missed in algebra. Just keep a close eye on him and move him down to algebra 2/geometry if the going gets rough. (KEEP AN EYE ON WHEN THE LAST DAY TO TRANSFER IS!)</p>

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<p>It really depends on your child. Does he rise to challenges or is he likely to be stressed? How well prepared would he be for the more challenging class? Perhaps the answer to this should he left to the end of the summer. As of now, he has only covered half of each of the prerequisite for Precalc, so he might be at a disadvantage starting PreCalc. In general, the GC is right: it is better to get solid As in Honors than to get Bs in slightly more advanced classes. Of course, it would be even better to get As in more advanced classes. :)
A compromise might be for your son to try out precalc and move down to honors if he feels overwhlemed. This depends largely on whether his schedule would allow such a move and if the class he would be moving to is not full. For example, my S took a semester elective and liked the topic so much he decided to take the second semester. Alas, the class was full by that time.</p>

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<p>Well, for my son I wouldn't have hestitated. I shipped him over every course his schools would let him skip. For him, boredom was the kiss of death---he blew off easier courses and worked in harder ones. And I disagree somewhat with the conventional advice on grades; I don't think it's crucial to have a 4.0 if you clearly are having fun in school and learning rapidly and easily. (At least it worked for my son, now at MIT, having skipped his entire senior year.)</p>

<p>You know your son better than any of us. What does HE want to do?</p>

6

<p>Ditto what dmd77 said. My son completed his second year of AP Calculus in 9th grade, and ate up every bit of math he could find, as fast as he could find it, quite competently, while also diving into all his other subjects. (Well, except foreign language, he wasn't much for that...) He would have been chafing at the bit with boredom had he been held to a slower curriculum: it was right for him to move faster. (And he'll be joining dmd77's son at MIT this fall.) Your son may not be one of those students for whom this is the right approach, though, and much may depend on what your school is likely to offer him in math in his later HS years. What is their policy on accellerated math for the junior/senior year?</p>

<p>For some kids, this works excellently well, but not for others. Your school's offerings, the rest of his course load, how naturally excited he is about math, and how your son likes to work will probably help make the decision. It's not inherently a bad idea, though.</p>

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<p>I did not have much choice: my kids do NOT get solid A's in easy courses. I have two overachivers who were skipping everything their school would allow them to skip, and I always knew they'd do better in challenging courses. No, they never had straight A's, but it never bothered me, I feel that keeping them interested is more important.</p>

<p>But I never expected that the same is true for my S2 (always underachiever)... He decided to homeschool in 11th and 12th grades. His best grades at school were B or B+ (in our current district that meant that he's not eligible to take Honors classes, and of course he could not get to any of the AP classes). He also had Cs and Ds in his transcript ("Mom, I just stopped listening to her in the 4th quarter... it was soooo boring!"). Now? All A's in the community college classes he took in the two years (more challenging classes than he had in school)... Guess I have three overachievers now? (oh well, I know that's wishful thinking... just wanted to dream a little bit)</p>

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<p>My S is another one who is more likely to get top grades in challenging classes and blow off easy ones, which was a big reason for getting him into more advanced classes. But he was not stressed about the classes.</p>

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<p>Let him mostly make the decision. I was advanced in math throughout middle school, and it worked wonderfully for me, but only because the math teachers at my school were better than any other department. When I ran out of classes to take, they arranged new ones with me and convinced the principal to let me take them (nearest college is over an hour). I also tested out of a couple classes (moved, then moved back and lost a semester) and was very glad I did. I only had a couple weeks to prepare, and, the way I saw it, if I could sit down with the books and study for a couple weeks, not exactly full time, and pass two entire classes--taking the classes would've been pretty pointless. Then I had a pretty pointless and boring senior year since I was ahead in everything and had nothing left to take. </p>

<p>So, how good an idea it is depends partly on the school and what he'll do in the long term. It also depends on him--pressuring him to do it if he'd rather stay in the easier classes with his friends and classmates is not a good idea, even if it makes sense for him academically. I can't swear it, but I think skipping classes and working ahead looks good to colleges...shows initiative and good study habits, academic interest, etc.</p>

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<p>I see no problem, math is one of the those subjects that is easy to see if someone is getting all the "learning" in. One concern would be scheduling...sometimes certain classes are scheduled that could possibly conflict with a class from his regular freshman schedule.</p>

<p>For instance, some AP classes at my Ds school are schedule for a period when the 9th and 10th graders are at lunch. So, if they test into AP language (spanish, french) then they miss lunch with their grade.</p>

<p>if that isn't an issue, math is one of those classes that has "tangible" skills, if you get my drift, unlike english or social studies</p>

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<p>I'm not very familiar with the math courses/requirements in the US, so please forgive me if my post is inapplicable in your situation.</p>

<p>If your son skips that math course, does that mean he will finish the high school requirement for math 1 year early?</p>

<p>For me, because I accelerated through math in grade 9, and the way my high school schedule is going to work out, I will finish Math 30 Pure(grade 12 level math) by the end of grade 10. Then in grade 11, I'll take Math 31 AP (calculus), and be finished math for high school. This allows me to take more sciences/other courses in grade 12 and possibly have a lighter load in grade 12. So for me, by accelerating, I have more room for other courses I'm interested in later on in high school.</p>

<p>In the US, is it absolutely necessary to take math every single year in high school?</p>

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<p>Dancer:
Most high schools require only 3 years of math; colleges do not require, but encourage students to take 4 years of certain subjects, including math. If you have taken Calculus in 11th grade and wish to take sciences classes in 12th grade, I'm sure it will be fine with colleges. </p>

<p>Our high school requires three years. My S entered high school having already taken AP-Calculus, but he still had to take three years of math anyway--which he was happy to do--, so he took college classes. The first year, he was able to take evening classes. But the next two years, he had to take daytime classes. Since this was to fulfill a school requirement, the high school had to accommodate him and construct a schedule that allowed him to do so.</p>

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<p>Hi Jolynne-</p>

<p>I think we keep posting mutually beneficial questions on the latest math thread. </p>

<p>Five years ago, (wow, it's been forever) I started out this process with our oldest, when she was a HS soph. I thought I was so on top of things and then I found out from another (then) busy college site, that I was WAY behind. Seeing your posts brings back memories!</p>

<p>That D ended up skipping the entire 8th grade. She agreed to not skip another grade later, in HS. She wanted 4 years of the social/exracurricular life, but at times she still got bored academically. This even with testing out of another year of required science and submitting a portfolio for English placement and getting placed two additional years ahead (not counting the grade skip) in English. This was something that had never been done before in our district, nor since. Snotty middle school teacher would not give her a recommendation because she thought D had attitude, due to move-up. Said she would have problems. Ha! The English dept head said as long as she didn't have to have an A right out of the gate, she would be fine. They let her take upper level stuff at both local high schools, this teacher became her mentor and set her up with all kinds of English related opportunites as an 'occupational' requirement and she is doing well as an English major in college.</p>

<p>The academic move-up was great for her. Like her MS principal said, she was very social, and she got along great with older classmates. Better, actually. She was sick of the 'gifted' kids that were lazy and complacent and only cared about grades. Many of them actually were doing worse than the 'regular' kids by HS, anyway. She competed well in her ECs too-she was very talented in music, leadership and cheer. The only real problem she had was, at times, especially early on, many girls (mostly) resented her. Sometimes this made life difficult, but she sure learned to handle tough situations! If your son is ready for the challenge academically AND otherwise, then I say go for it! Like others have said, if they have been bored, jumping ahead, they may actually do better. Our policy has always been, don't push...but if the child is pulling then you need to get moving.</p>

<p>At the time oldest D was moving up, our youngest D was placed in a gifted program as a 3rd grader and she started going crazy in math. They didn't know what to do with her. (She is the one I have been asking questions for on the other thread.) Other math folks were very helpful in giving advice as to how to handle her situation. She is now an 8th grade calc kid...even though we have held her back a bit at times. (We didn't want her to I/S or go to the HS during the 1st year of middle school.) Last year she took math at the HS and she will have 1/2 of her day there this year. She has done extra science, music and language activities to keep herself busy. For her, it is just necessary.(AND fun!) Like Marite's son, she does not want to grade skip, because of friends and because, as she puts it, she 'deserves' to be 13! She is in no hurry to grow up, thank goodness! Not that the move-up wasn't the right thing for her sis.</p>

<p>I guess what it boils down to is , what is right for your son and you? We have had to do a lot of obstacle 'removing' with the school district. Just find a way to make it impossible for them to say no by doing your research before-hand. Be sure you know what he will do academically if he is accelerated. D thinks she wants to be a math major. She knows she will have to take total responsibility for math down the road as we won't have a clue past calc! She's not likely to get any help from anyone else around here, either. AP calc is the end of the math road in our area. Our son now seems headed down the same road but may not choose to advance so far in math, depending on desire and future plans. He is in the 5th grade. Now the school knows what to do with him. They ask us to deal with it and if it's something we haven't already had experience with due to a sibling, I come here and ask the experts!</p>

<p>Oh, and by the way, older daughter was 'just' strong in math. We were able to move her up on a trial basis before we committed to a whole year skip in math. One other note- kids taking classes out of their 'grade' really can cause scheduling nightmares! Usually, when the school says (and it often does) that it can't be done, it is up the the parents to find a way that it can. Sometimes transportation will come into play, also.</p>

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<p>Wow, what fantstic input! Thanks so much to all who responded---each post gave another insight/suggestion for me to incorporate into evaluating this possibility!</p>

<p>Critter--lol, yes, I had thought I was somewhat 'on top of things' until I came here and realized there was a whole different level of opportunity for students out there!</p>

<p>It's hard to say re: my son whether he'd thrive in a higher level class. Really don't know. He's got impressive brainpower, but has to be pushed to do his homework, often ("I get hundreds on all my tests, why do I need to do homework? arg). He has some organizational issues (we've signed him up for a study skills class this summer). He's also got a number of good buddies in his current honors math class.</p>

<p>I think he'll have a lot on his plate w/all honors classes in 9th grade---particularly honors English, since he's loathe to put any effort into writing (despite a 670 on his CR SAT last month, whatever). </p>

<p>Am thinking to give him that 'added math dimension' maybe he & a friend can do the AMC tests (& whatever else higher-level he qualifies for) plus the school math team and consider a math camp (plus CTY) next summer. </p>

<p>He's already working on a fairly ambitious science project for next year plus has two time-consuming,sports (fencing/karate). </p>

<p>Guess we'll lean toward 'no skip' at this point (see how the summer goes---and if he dives into the great math books recommended on another thread!). </p>

<p>He can always take pre-cal next summer at the local comm. college (possibly) if he really shows an aptitude.</p>

<p>Again, thank you all for the generous suggestions!</p>

15

<p>
[quote]
One other note- kids taking classes out of their 'grade' really can cause scheduling nightmares! Usually, when the school says (and it often does) that it can't be done, it is up the the parents to find a way that it can. Sometimes transportation will come into play, also.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That has been the main concern at our S's school, not unwillingness to accommodate; that's why discussions had to start early so that many scenarios could be tested. The GC told S to select the college classes he needed and the school would build a schedule around them. But the GC had to look hard for electives that would not clash with S's other classes; and he was concerned that making space for the college classes led to too many "guided studies" and study halls (not allowed by the state). </p>

<p>Re: transportation. We're lucky that it was not a problem. But one teacher told us that the district would accommodate students if necessary. He told us the story of a blind student who did not get along with the school's own specialist. The district paid a taxi to take the student to a high school in another district. I would not be surprised if the cab fare was $20 one way.</p>

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<p>Jolynne - if you decide against skipping, you may be able to keep your son challenged in math by steering him towards competition math. There are many contests in addition to the AMC exams. Competition math frequently involves topics outside the usual curriculum (like number theory, combinatorics). And there are many resources to help prepare for competitions which he could work on to whatever degree he wanted to. The books at <a href="http://www.artofproblemsolving.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.artofproblemsolving.com&lt;/a> are great, and I can personally recommend them. The online courses there are probably also great, but I have no firsthand knowledge.</p>

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<p>You say about your son:
"He's got impressive brainpower, but has to be pushed to do his homework, often ("I get hundreds on all my tests, why do I need to do homework? arg). "</p>

<p>This is exactly what my son said about math for years* (see note below). It took moving him into really challenging classes to force him to be organized and actually need to do his homework. </p>

<p><em>My son was asked to repeat 8th grade math because he had a 70.1%, because he'd done one homework assignment all year, homework was 30% of the grade</em>* (see next note), and he'd gotten 100% on his tests. They said he was "too immature" to continue in math without learning to study and get his homework in. (At that point he was two years ahead in math.) He appealed to the teacher: no. The department head: no. Me: no (I'd talked to the principal already). The principal: no, BUT if he could persuade the teacher who'd have him the next year, maybe. Mr. B (the best calculus teacher in the known universe) gave him the final for the next year, which DS passed. But he'd made some careless mistakes, so Mr. B wrote out a contract requiring my son to do his 80% of his homework or go back a year and let him in. My son got the top grade in the class--101%. </p>

<p>**I can't be the only parent out there who thinks it insane to have so much of the grade depend on homework completion. I think it's why so many students have great grades and not-so-hot SATs/APs/etc.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
**I can't be the only parent out there who thinks it insane to have so much of the grade depend on homework completion.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>boy, me too! And this happens even in college courses. It's the "one size fits all" attitude of it that gets me. I am sure that many kids need to do all of the homework in order to learn the material. But many kids don't. I know from my son's experience that a talented kid working on their own can master the material in a fraction of the time it would take to sit through all the classes and complete all the homework required for a good course grade.</p>

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<p>"So you've finished the assignment already? Here's more of it." How often do kids who get it first time hear this from teachers when they are the ones who should get less rather than more of the same! No wonder so many gifted students turn into underachievers.
I would not worry about a kid blowing off homework in a challenging class; I would if s/he were in an undemanding one. My S used to blow off easy homework. When he took college classes, he developed much better study habits and organizational skills and stopped grumbling about stupid homework.
If your child wants to take the more advanced math classes, he will have to agree to be responsible for doing the work without your nagging. You may find that he will be eager to do so.</p>

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<p>Joly,
You've heard from many parents with kids who skipped ahead in math classes, and often entered college a year early. Add my S to the list. We had to break district rules, carpool to CC, deal with so many missed classes at end of day, but it was all worth it. His friend, a year younger, benefitted from my S's experience. He too is leaving HS early and will meet up with Texas' and DMD's Ss.
By the way, I never had to ask about homework once he was happy with his classes/coursework.</p>