<p>Rileydog:</p>
<p>Your S sounds exactly like my S's cousin, except for the specifics of the LD.</p>
<p>My child skipped Algebra I and Precalc and it clearly was the right decision for her, because it enabled her to take and enjoy AP Physics in 10th grade. But several other kids who skipped Algebra I ultimately had problems with Calculus BC and dropped down to Calc AB. And, some kids who skipped Precalc did badly on a few tests in Calc BC. So, it depends a lot on your child's background and interest in math, and also on whether your son could take college math courses during high school. It doesn't make much sense to accelerate and then stop taking math in 10th or 11th grade.</p>
<p>Rileydog:</p>
<p>I sent you a PM.</p>
<p>citygirlsmom
[quote]
I was referring to kids who just couldn't be bothered to take any time, or who think, well, I ace the tests, so I don't need to do what the teacher has specifically asked me to.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, what you are describing are just arrogant kids... But I do know other kids: those who are bored silly in their classes, and who sincerely can't remember to do all the busywork loaded on them... Funny thing: the same kids acquire all the necessary study skills momentarily if they get into a challenging and interesting class. They are not arrogant, their brain just shuts down when fed all that dull stuff. </p>
<p>Is it really necessary to train the kids in do-exactly-as-you-were-told skills? They are not in the Army, and I doubt we need that many Dilberts in the workforce...</p>
<p>Gee Marmat, there are lots of professions that require "do as you're told" skills at the beginning... nobody wants a neurosurgeon who is winging it... people don't like to fly on airplanes with a pilot who doesn't follow the safety checklist before taking off; I like knowing that my lawyer actually knows the relevant case law and statutes before giving my business an opinion.</p>
<p>My kids acted out when bored, so I know that side of the street only too well, but my company hires hundreds of new BA's every year and you can't believe how many of them can't be bothered to fill out their W-4's legibly, or show up for a computer training session on time. The attitude is, "I'm smart, I aced HS and college, I make a lot of money". Well- too bad some kindly seventh grade teacher didn't whip that kid into shape by giving him a D in math if his homework was perpetually late or if he didn't put his name on the top of his quizzes week after week. Sloppy work habits follow people throughout their lives, and the smart alec kids always think someone's there to pick up after them....</p>
<p>I can see what your saying...every job, no matter how challenging, has mundane parts to it that have to be attended to. But getting back to the notion of accelerating students, I think what is being said here is how toxic boredom can be to the overall functioning of a student. I think if kids are challenged appropriately in class, they are usually willing to do the extra, organizational stuff that is required. And teachers, I agree, are correct to require timely, neatly presented work.</p>
<p>blossom:</p>
<p>Oh, but you are talking about the arrogant kids again; I am talking about those who do not have the I-am-better-than-this-**** attitude. They ARE capable of exact and meticulous work; they ARE responsible; they DO all the important things perfectly (try their best, at least) - but... oh, well... I believe that if YOU were told to "color in the lines" 8 hours a day, every day, - you would probably lose your study skills, too. I know I would.</p>
<p>Marmat and I have the same kind of kids. They are METICULOUS when working on challenging work, same as a neurosurgeon operating; they're not winging hard assignments. They KNOW their stuff, so the lawyer analogy does not apply.
An anecdote. Because of scheduling conflicts and availability of courses, my S and a senior (co-captain of the Science Team) were assigned to level 1 Biotechnology class. Both of them had already taken AP-Chemistry and AP=Physics, and thus had covered 2/3 of the materials to be taught in the Biotech class. They should have been in Biotech3 but it was not being offered that year. Despite their early resolve, they began to blow off the far too easy projects. The teacher told both of them that she could only grade the work she was given though she knew they were capable of more. BUT she also suggested that they could design a more challenging project of their own and not take part in the more pedestrian class project. Result: They spent a huge amount of time and effort on their challenging project and actually learned something in that class. Their report was a model of meticulousness.</p>
<p>Chiming in late in this thread. As I have mentioned before, I also have an S who is somewhat bored in high school. He is one of only two boys in his freshman class who got straight A's both semesters. However, we have taken a somewhat different approach to date that might be of interest, and on which I am happy to hear opinions.</p>
<p>First of all, my kids went to an alternative school through 8th grade. So there was no testing, no someone telling us about CTY, no chance to take math in class above Algebra 1 in 8th grade. And most of all, it wasn't an environment where academic enrichment was looked on with kindly eyes. That said, my kids have learned pottery, paper mache, theater, dance, had camping trips, learned biology from marshlands, etc.</p>
<p>For my D, this wasn't an issue, as she is very social, and spent her time either teaching the other kids or working on the highly complex organization known as middle school girl and boy relationships.</p>
<p>But my son found video games instead. Which truly appeal to his fondness for complex systems. When he was about 11 he told me he liked soccer and pokemon for the same reasons, they both had so many possible outcomes.</p>
<p>Hmm. So forward to now. He isn't the kind of kid who wants to solve math problems in his free time. Although he doesn't even break a sweat in Honors Geometry, doing extra math doesn't get him excited. His school will take him through AP Calculus by senior year. I think we will just leave him in this track.</p>
<p>However, he is really interested in languages. He's taking Latin. He didn't even study for the final for the reasons others have outlined above - no challenge. But he and I have started to take Mandarin together once a week at night. He also likes to read - I have mentioned the New Yorker. Still one of his favorites. My guess is that if a philosophy class were offered to high schoolers, he'd love it. </p>
<p>For now, I find I am sorry I didn't know about all this CTY etc. earlier on. Maybe he would have diverted his video game interest to math. Who knows. What's done is done. For now, I am down the path of finding extra interest for him in humanities and languages. Now reading this thread I am thinking of asking his school if they would let him take upper class English instead of sophomore English. He will take AP US history this year too. Thoughts from the esteemed group above? Anyone with a boy who isn't on the college math courses in high school track but is also suffering from boredom?</p>
<p>I have to take issue with the idea that learning to do busy work is a necessary part of life and therefore should occur in high school. There is tedious work that must be done and there is busy work. Learning to write a paper is not busy work. Learning to manipulate equations is not busy work. Doing ten simple math problems when challenging problems are available is busy work. </p>
<p>Busy work, which IMHO includes most homework assignments given out by ineffective teachers, is by definition work assigned to keep someone busy. Meaningful homework, like the meaningful but tedious portions of any job, is not the issue here. But way too much homework is assigned without any thought as to its usefulness. My son's favorite math teacher assigned homework this way: "Look over problems 1 to 10. Do one easy one, one medium one, and one hard one. Make sure you document and explain every step. If you bog down, quit before you get hopelessly confused, and go back and do some of the sample problems. When you've done that, please read over the next section and come to class with your questions."</p>
<p>Alumother:</p>
<p>I think it is easier to provide enrichment on the side for someone in the humanities than in math and science because of the latter's sequential nature. This enrichment can be provided in class or outside without acceleration.
When my S was in 7th and 8th grade, his teachers, knowing his potential, expected more from him. So he had to do more to earn a "Going Beyond" designation, but he never resented these higher standards. He has always been a kid who rises to challenges.
When my S was in 9th and 10th grade, he was in heterogeneous classes which ranged in skills level from 5th grade to college ready. The principal had gotten rid of honors track (elitist) and provided a couple of hours of enrichment per week (undefined content). Some teachers used those two hours to assign special projects in history and in English. As a result, my S read extra books (two per term) and wrote reports on each; he also wrote four history research papers, one of which got entered into the National History Day competition. In contrast, the regular social studies and English classes had mostly worksheets and "free write."
I would suggest telling your S to use every assignment to do the best. For example, a 4-5 page paper might become a 10 page paper on an important subject. A paper that is supposed to have 5 sources might be based on more than that. I remember the case of a 6th grader who decided to write on a group of naval vets. He contacted them via the internet and interviewed them. HIs 6th grade paper turned into a history of that group.
If your S likes languages, as it appears it does, he can also learn more than one. Chinese is a difficult language to learn, so kudoes to him and to you!</p>
<p>marite - my S rises to challenges too. He voices the wish that school were harder, that it were more difficult to get an A. I think that's one of the reasons he likes the RPG video games - the rate of progress is so clear, the mastery so defined. I am thinking I need to find a way to use that aspect of his character in this...</p>
<p>I agree, enrichment that's not math-based is much easier, especially for me. I guess my S is lucky in that his private high school has classes of 17 kids, and many of his teachers are youngish Stanford grads who really love their work and were kids like him when they were young. So yes, good idea. I should work with the system and become more involved in his assignments, because he doesn't get busywork type of homework. Confession: part of my frustration is that I work such long hours I don't get to be involved very easily. But who ever said this kid thing would be easy. If I ever thought so that first labor should have changed my mind....</p>
<p>Hence the Mandarin. I'm learning for work. I loved languages too, majored in Comp Lit with French, Italian and Latin, so I am hoping the cobwebs can come off. He does whip my (impolite anatomical expression) however in class:). </p>
<p>Has anyone's kid ever competed in language competitions?</p>
<p>Thanks for the input, appreciate it enormously.</p>
<p>dmd77 - One thing I have learned is that there is a time and a place for knowing how to say, "Yes sir". If you are very bright, the chances are very high that early in your career you will have a boss who isn't so bright. That boss will ask you to do stuff you think is stupid. And he/she will still be your boss. Arguing will be a bad idea.</p>
<p>Now is high school the place to learn this lesson? I don't know. And I certainly I agree that it is not a lesson to be learned at the cost of boredom so severe that the kid starts to hate school.</p>
<p>Still, busywork is a fact of life.</p>
<p>Alumother:</p>
<p>If your S finds the assignments undemanding, can he ask his teachers to read more challenging texts, write longer papers, etc...? My S has had several student teachers right out of college (Princeton, Georgetown) who were very dedicated and creative and were delighted to assign more challenging stuff.
If he is taking Latin, there is the National Latin Exam. I don't think it's a competition, more like an in-class exam. Students are awarded medals and Latin honors. I think there are indeed competitions in other languages, though I have not looked into this.
Does his school have Academic Decathlon? It's not the kind of thing my S liked as it involves mostly memorization, but kids do get to learn quite a lot of stuff across a wide variety of subjects. In English, they get to read several novels; in history, they learn about a particular topic. A couple of years ago, it was about the Lewis& Clark expedition, for instance.
As I think back on my S's school career, I think he learned as much outside classes as inside them. Some of it was through academic ECs such as the Science Team which was also great for his social life. The Creative Writing Club turned out to be a great success, too, on both counts.</p>
<p>Interesting, interesting discussion!</p>
<p>My son doesn't have so much 'busy-work' it seems...just stuff that isn't to his liking (personal journals, etc.). He then he decides not to put in the effort.</p>
<p>Based on my own experience (moving from disorganized to somewhat organized and seeing all the personal benefits)---I have to come down on the side of "get used to doing [some] stuff you think is stupid...that's part of life!" (for son).</p>
<p>I just can't seem to write off son's decision to blow off certain deadlines, forget his important papers at school, fail to clean out his locker for months, etc. the result of lack of challenge. </p>
<p>Although, it may be part of it. However, he was in a gifted program from 3rd through 6th grade---the amount of tedious <em>writing</em> and mind-numbing research and endless projects required made both of us aggravated (and he was no better about homework/working ahead of deadlines then, either--actually, worse...)</p>
<p>I'm hoping an all-honors slate in HS coupled w/a variety of math contests/teams plus a science project will meet the challenge aspect. Some maturity and goal-oriented thinking (college/money--as crass as that may be...) will hopefully help him w/the organizational/homework aspects.</p>
<p>That and a study-skills class (should he ever decide he needs to study...!)</p>
<p>Alumother: my H has had exactly one job where he didn't own at least part of the company. He started his first company at age 22 precisely because a company president didn't listen to him when he argued (he was right: that guy's company was out of business within five years). My S is definitely heading the exact same way, having already made a small profit on his first product at age 18. My D--who is working for us this summer and bored by her job--is already trying to figure out how to be <em>her</em> own boss. </p>
<p>The tedious jobs aren't so tedious when there's a good reason to do them, IMHO. And necessary jobs aren't busywork, which was the point I was trying to make.</p>
<p>For Latin students, you might want to look into [url=<a href="http://www.njcl.org%5DJCL%5B/url">www.njcl.org]JCL[/url</a>] (Junior Classical League). If your S's school is not yet a member, he could start a chapter. Most of the serious Latin students at my kids' school participate in JCL.</p>
<p>I would distinguish between being forgetful and being careless.<br>
My S was never forgetful, but he could be very careless when doing something he considered busywork. For example, his early biotech reports were carelessly written, but the report on his far more challenging biotech project was meticulously written.
He would fill in worksheets in sloppy handwriting, but would turn in neatly printed, sometimes well illustrated papers on more challenging topics. He did not mind tedium if it had a purpose (beyond teaching kids that life is full of boring chores and they have to learn to deal with it).
I would be concerned about devloping appropriate study skills. Some people would argue that you need to acquire study skills before you tackle challenging sutff. My experience is that when kids care about the outcome, they develop the appropriate attitude and are willing to put in the effort and put up with a large amount of tedium.</p>
<p>dmd77 - </p>
<p>Certain people are born entrepreneurs and solo practitioners. Those people are willing to take the slings and arrows of that life in exchange for never having to listen or take orders from people they think are stupid or misguided. In my experience, that's a temperamental thing, hard-wired from birth. So for them the process of TRYING to do the dumb stuff they get told to do is not so that they will succeed, it is that they will come to understand their temperament and start on the right path early.</p>
<p>For others, who might think they don't want to do the stupid stuff, it's good to learn early if you can tolerate it or not. Makes life easier if later you can say to yourself, "Sure it's stupid but I signed up for it."</p>
<p>I agree necessary jobs aren't busywork, but boy they can still sure be tedious IMO. I think the difference is when they are necessary according to you vs. necessary according to someone you don't respect. And that takes us back to the temperament. Can you and will you take orders or no?</p>
<p>No right or wrong, just important to be clear fairly early.</p>
<p>Mootmom - </p>
<p>Yes. His teacher has asked him to compete. It's the coolness problem again. Although how playing the saxophone badly in public is cool and competing in Latin is not I don't know. Teenage boys remain a vast mystery to me. I have to get involved...</p>
<p>Alu</p>