<p>My son will be a senior this fall. His HS has no AP or advanced courses of any kind. Is there any hope of him getting acepted to a top school? He has a 36 ACT, but there are not many EC's to be involved in. Any thoughts?</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>Some ECs he could be involved in almost anywhere are in volunteer work. This could be at a hospital, in city/county parks, volunteering to fix-up/paint houses for the disadvantaged or those on a fixed income, starting a philanthropic organization, etc. - this list goes on and on. </p>
<p>Keying off of your moniker, my older D did a >200 hour community service project by organizing blanket making (including quilts) through all of the area quilt shops and sewing guilds to collect hundreds of brand new handmade blankets for donation to some foster facilities. The facilities were thrilled to receive the blankets which would be given to the children to keep as they move from facility to home to home to facility, etc.</p>
<p>Why doesn't he have any AP or similar courses? If it's because his school doesn't offer them, that won't count against him. If it's because he didn't want to take the courses that were offered, that will count against him as top colleges want students to take the toughest courseloads available wehre they are in school.</p>
<p>As for ECs, community activities, church activities, volunteer work, working jobs and doing things like working in family businesses/farms all count. What top colleges want are students with the creativity, work ethic and initiative to contribute strongly to nonacademic campus life. Consequently, applicants who attend schools with few ECs are still expected to have found something to do wtih their time beside study.</p>
<p>There are not any AP courses offered. He has some EC's - Mayor's Youth Commission (president next year), quiz bowl, school district advisory committee student rep and teaching 7th and 8th grade Sunday school, but it is not the 100's of hours I see from others. Most of his time is spent in theatre activities.<br>
The school is not at all knowlegeable about anything for students like him. He will probably the 1st National Merit Scholar they have had and it is not because there haven't been intelligent kids, they just don't let them know what is available. I am pretty sure he is the only one to take the SAT in a long time, if ever, as well.<br>
I have certainly learned a lot on this forum and I thank all for that.</p>
<p>Top colleges are far, far more impressed by ECs with in depth and impact than they are of laundry lists of dozens of activities that the student has had no impact with or has basically done nothing but pile up hours with.</p>
<p>Being head of the Mayor's Youth commission sounds like a big deal particularly if your S has initiated or directed some projects that affected the community. If this is so, it could be wise for him to submit a supplementary recommendation from a supervisor who can attest to what your S has done. Many colleges allow this. Do not, however, go overboard with getting extra recommendations. Usually one is enough if that one illustrates something that is not described that much in the GC or teacher reccs.</p>
<p>Having the GC write that he's the first NM semi-finalist (finalists won't be determined until probably after he applies to colleges) in recent years will also help strengthen his app as will the fact that presumably the h.s. has not had kids go to top colleges. It's an application boost if, for instance, no other students have attended H from a particular h.s.</p>
<p>Since your S seems to come from an area underrepresented when it comes to top colleges, that also could be a boost for him in general.</p>
<p>We could be more helpful if you say what state or area of the country you live in, and what your S is looking for in a college including where he's considering applying.</p>
<p>We live in Iowa. We live on the edge of a city of 80,000 bur he goes to school in a small town. His graduating class will be about 100. He is totally unsure what he wants to major in or what size/type college. He is not into sports. He has been on several campuses in the state, so is not totally unaware of what's out there. His list at the moment is:</p>
<p>University of Chicago
Northwstern University
Washington University
Grinnell
Drake University
University of Pittsburg
Saint John's - Annapolis
Saint Olaf
Arizona State
University of Nebraska - Omaha
University of Nevraska - Lincoln
South Dakota State University
Iowa State Univesity </p>
<p>He at one time also had Harvard, Princeton, MIT, and Johns Hopkins on there, but wasn't sure about taking the SAT subject tests.</p>
<p>He is currently ranked 2nd in his class 3.98 GPA
PSAT 230
ACT 36
SAT 770,730,7500 essay 11 (June test.) Highest 770, 740, 750</p>
<p>Any input/insight is greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>Theatre is a great EC as are his other EC's. Your school list has mostly larger schools with St. John's being a bit of an outlier. His grades and scores would get him into many smaller liberal arts colleges here in the East if he is interested in coming this far. Many schools like geographic balance.</p>
<p>He should take at least two SAT II's for most schools. Have him pick his favorite two subjects and get a self-study guide. He should take them in October or November and I am sure will do well. His ACT score may eliminate the need for these so check each schools website.</p>
<p>Use the CollegeBoard or Princeton Review sites or large guidebooks to search for schools, at the upper end of the ratings I think you will find, that are a match to his SAT scores.</p>
<p>Since you have Chicago and St. John's on the list you might consider Columbia which also has a strong core set of requirements. I am most familiar with East Coast schools but his record seems to qualify him for just about any small school I have looked at for my Son and Daughter. Some schools to consider, depending on his interests but keying off of theatre, might be Macalestar, Oberlin, Bates/Colby/Bowdoin, Vassar, Wesleyan, Bard, Conn College, Franklin and Marshall (ok my alma mater but it does have a small active arts program with great new performing spaces.), Skidmore, Muhlenberg, Amherst, Haverford, or Swarthmore.</p>
<p>As he is from a small school he might be more comfortable at a small school, my bias, or perhaps he wants to try something big. U Michigan is some place to consider as well.</p>
<p>He has great stats and great ECs. Don't sell him short.</p>
<p>I agree that he should check whether the schools he is interested in require SATIIs. He should do well in those and they only take one hour each; he could take 2 or even 3 at a time, in October and evern November for a EA/ED deadline of Nov. 1.</p>
<p>Remember to consider schools with rolling admissions deadline. These tend to be state schools, and some are excellent and have honors programs. </p>
<p>Will he need finaid? This will need to be factored in in his list of schools. Also, what does he plan on studying in senior year? Can he take courses online? Take courses at the local community college? The more selective colleges do take into account the initiative shown by students to challenge themselves even if their schools do not offer advanced courses. Another option would be for him to take some independent studies with a teacher to go beyond what the school curriculum offers.</p>
<p>So am I gathering that the Ivies are too far of a reach?</p>
<p>iaquilter, I don't think anyone has said that. 3.98 taking the most challenging curriculum the school offers (not his fault the school doesn't offer AP), perfect ACT score. Good EC's. Comes from a school that doesn't send a lot of kids to Ivies. I think he'll be very competitive for Ivy admission, with the standard warning that those schools are reaches for everybody. Put together a good application (you may need to do some significant "training" of the GC and teachers who write the rec letters) and take a shot. But in any event, he's going to be admitted to some GREAT schools with his background and those stats.</p>
<p>my son also attended a small, public, middle of nowhere high school. his particular school does not offer AP classes either. however, as a suggestion, the state of illinois does offer Illinois Virtual High School, and through this, high school students can take AP classes on-line. Maybe this would be an option for you.</p>
<p>congratulations on the great ACT score. and like many others have stated, theatre is a great EC.</p>
<p>my son's high school class was well under 100, our guidance counselor is great with the local universities and community colleges, but when it came to applying to dartmouth, we pretty much investigated it and did most of the work ourselves. i found this forum most helpful in answering any of my questions!</p>
<p>I agree with lderochi. But I also think he needs to show some initiative about overcoming the lack of challenging courses in his school. It would be different if he were to be attending a truly rural school and coming from a family with limited means. But if he is not, then taking online courss or doing an independent study, or taking classes at the local community college would be more impressive. </p>
<p>Still, if he does not apply, he won't get in.</p>
<p>
[quote]
He has great stats and great ECs. Don't sell him short.
[/quote]
This is also the way I see it. I know that marite is also correct in saying that he could have/might still be able to fill the gap in his own hs's offerings by using online/comm college, independent study. But I know that not everyone is aware of those options. So I don't think missing those options will alter his excellent profile, which is enhanced - as someone above said - by his geography. It's not too late for him to consider an Independent Study for the fall.</p>
<p>You have come to the right place, iaquilter. Welcome. Here, the knowledge and perspective about college admissions is awesome. This group can help you and your S fine-tune his list, learn how to craft the best possible application, guide you in working with the GC/teachers to get the best possible recs.</p>
<p>He seems to me to have a well-balanced list as to reach/match/safety. But I'm not sure if the safeties are schools he would be happy with or not. Quite possibly, they are. Which of those schools (or the ones he took off because of SAT IIs) seem to be the one(s) he likes best? Fine-tuning the list to make the others have as many attributes as possible in common with the favorites would be the next step, I believe.</p>
<p>I agree with lderochi, I think he has a shot for an Ivy (36 ACTs aren't seen everyday) - the question is does he want to go to one? Can the family afford for him to go to a top private? And which one(s) are right for him? New Haven or Chicago will be a big change from small town middle America.</p>
<p>Educating the GCs and teachers for recs will be an issue, but there is only so much that can be done on that score. Probably the most important factoid for the GC letter is that he is the school's first NMF and first to apply to selective schools - I think the schools will read between the lines after that. The teachers should be able to write well, and include specific anecdotes about his intellectual curiosity and abilities.</p>
<p>Another issue related to curriculum is degree of preparation related to peers once he gets to college (no matter which college he attends). Just because a kid hasn't had calculus before going into college, doesn't mean he isn't prepared, but he will be studying alongside many kids who have had calculus, for example. Taking an online course and doing well, will be reassuring that his preparation has been good. The quality of small rural schools can vary tremendously (I know, I went to one, and my kids go to a small Southern, religious affliated private school - just think of the assumptions people make about it ;)), his school may be excellent, it may be not so great - an outside course will clarify that point.</p>
<p>Good luck to him, he should do very well.</p>
<p>I agree with those that have said has a shot at any school in the country. You might have him check out the various online AP opportunities. Check out:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.apexlearning.com/%5B/url%5D">http://www.apexlearning.com/</a>
<a href="http://www.ctd.northwestern.edu/learning/coursesap.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.ctd.northwestern.edu/learning/coursesap.html</a>
<a href="http://www.learnnc.org/courses/APEuro%5B/url%5D">http://www.learnnc.org/courses/APEuro</a>
<a href="http://yorkcountyschools.org/VirtualHS/Chem/APEuroHistory.htm%5B/url%5D">http://yorkcountyschools.org/VirtualHS/Chem/APEuroHistory.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.pahomeschoolers.com/courses/eurhist.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.pahomeschoolers.com/courses/eurhist.htm</a></p>
<p>Our HS gives Independent Study credit for approved courses like these and marks it as an AP course on the transcripts. APEX worked out well for my son and I will find out about Northwestern next year. Local college courses or even this are things to consider as well.
<a href="http://www.extension.harvard.edu/DistanceEd/%5B/url%5D">http://www.extension.harvard.edu/DistanceEd/</a></p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>Oh and another thing - now I'm speaking as someone who knew less than nothing about elite college admissions when my D started this process, and learned tons on this site - a big thing that is not always obvious about ECs is that almost anything is an EC, the secret is that the kid really cares about doing "it", has truly spent time doing "it", and can talk/write about the activity in a way that shows this is something he cares about. Sometimes the more off the wall the activity the better, as long as the interest and involvement is genuine. There are things to consider about how to "package" the ECs, which ones to emphasize, which one to use in the short essay, etc.
My daughter found Katherine Cohen's book to be good for this (although I thought her approach was a little bit of overkill, and D changed some of the time measures). Also if you search on this forum's archives from 2004, a poster named InterestedDad gave me some great advice about how to present ECs, and which ones to emphasize, that seemed to work for our D - her school's college counselor, who is great also corroborated the advice he gave.</p>
<p>Hello there. You're getting some good advice, but I think one thing that's being left out is that your son's school, considering his u/w GPA, will actually be a tip factor in his favor at the most selective schools. Here is what you need to do.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>He needs to take the SATIIs. Many, many schools require them (and I'm fairly certain that some on his list require them). You need to look up the testing requirements for each school, but the rule of thumb is that he should take at least two these days.</p></li>
<li><p>You need to work closely with his guidance counselor. There are certain key phrases that are useful in the GC recommendation. If your GC can find one attribute of your son's that s/he can honestly say "is the best I've seen come through this school," it will be a big plus. The phrases, in order, are</p></li>
<li><p>Best ever</p></li>
<li><p>One of best ever</p></li>
<li><p>Best this year</p></li>
<li><p>One of best this year</p></li>
<li><p>I assume that your son has taken the toughest schedule available at his school? He needs to continue doing that, and your GC needs to mark the appropriate box on the apps indicating this is the case.</p></li>
<li><p>Your teachers probably also have no idea how to construct a rec for kids of this caliber. Believe me, teachers in elite private schools know the buzzwords. Go to a good bookstore and browze the books on recs until you find one that seems to know a bit. Then, follow the advice for approaching teachers about writing recs.</p></li>
<li><p>At places like the University of Chicago and St. John's, essays will be key. He needs to start those early and polish them.</p></li>
<li><p>It is not too late to get him entered in some state, regional, and national contests. Talk to his English teacher(s) about being nominated for NCTE. Given your school's size, there can probably be only one nomination, but if he wins (there are an average of 12 per state but probably a bit fewer than that in Iowa), it will be a significant feather in his cap, and just getting the nomination is a nice resume builder. In addition, while your GC may not know much, but I can guaranted that s/he gets all KINDS of mail about contests (including scholarship contests) and other sorts of opportunities. If s/he hasn't time to go through them, you can.</p></li>
<li><p>Theater is a great EC. The key is to really go for it and take as much of a leadership role as possible.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Your son has many great opportunities, and if he's interested in the Ivies, I think he has a very decent shot at even the top ones. The Ivies use an academic index consisting of SATI and II scores and class rank. The index isn't everything, but scoring high on it has proven to have a strong relationship to the probability of admission. Your son's chances are actually quite good. I think the reason you haven't seen more enthusiasm on this thread is that admissions to the most elite schools is becoming so unpredictable that no one wants to give "false hope." Yale admitted only 8.6% of applicants last year, and that's from a pool of extremely well-qualified kids. But your son has a shot.</p>
<p>(Note: Not all Ivies are as difficult to get into as others. Some of the schools on your list are actually more difficult to get into than some of the Ivies.)</p>
<p>For what it's worth, my son has very similar numbers (but a bunch of APs, because his school offers them) and extra-curriculars, and plans to apply to several Ivy-type schools. (Whether he gets in is a different question, but that's true for everyone.) As long as the GC is willing to get behind him, and can say honestly that your son has taken the most challenging curriculum available to him, your son should be competitive anywhere.</p>
<p>As for your list, I suspect you could winnow down the number of state universities somewhat, since he will probably get into all of them solely on his (really good) numbers. I know from experience that the University of Pittsburgh (a PA state university) does rolling admissions based almost entirely on SATs and GPA, and that if you apply early enough the turnaround is about two weeks. (I'm not entirely certain that this works for out-of-state kids, but there's nothing that says it doesn't.) It's a good school with a good honors program that kids really like, although farther from Iowa than any of your list except St. John's and Arizona State. And I would be really surprised if Iowa State turns down a lot of Iowa kids with 36 ACT and 3.98 GPA (and no criminal record).</p>
<p>If you are going to do something to gild the lily -- and I'm not saying that I think you have to -- I would focus on finding a way to demonstrate his academic ambition and willingness to challenge himself. Like taking a math course at a local college if he has gotten through his school's math curriculum, or entering a science competition.</p>
<p>And I'm thinking he is fine with what he has done and his scores and all! Check the schools he is interested in, and take SAT II if required. If not, fine, relax. Schools love students from small-town Iowa - they bring a different persective from all the NE kids. He has some done some fine things, and is passionate about them from the looks of his resume. I don't think he needs to jump through anymore hoops, unless he really wants to. He should have a shot at the ivies if he is interested, and their financial aid is good if you have need. :)</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I would absolutely refine the safeties on your list. You only need two. Your son could probably get significant merit aid or even a free ride at the right matches & safeties. JHS is right.</p></li>
<li><p>Agree with other posters that your son should include any reach schools that he would really want to attend. You can look up posts from curmudgeon-- his D had a 35 ACT and 1500-ish SATs and was in at Yale, Amherst; she took the offer of a big scholarship at Rhodes.</p></li>
<li><p>The schools on the list so far are all over the map (as is normal this early in the process.) It would be useful to see if your son can nail down some of the most important qualities he seeks-- size, feel, location, campus culture, etc. A few visits to a small sampling of schools (big city U, small LAC, mid sized) might help.</p></li>
</ol>