Small Town vs. Big City - Pros and Cons Living and Educating

Parents Forum
1

<p>We currently live in a big town with huge high schools--both private and public. Although I can find private high schools that have small class sizes, this will cost me a small fortune. I am toying with the idea of moving to a small town with one public school K-12. Classes range from 10-40 kids per grade. </p>

<p>Love to hear from parents on their experiences with educating and living in a small town. Was this "closeness" beneficial or detrimental when your kids went to college?</p>

<p>Also would like to hear about how it was for those of you who relocated from the fast lane to the slow lane--what helped you to adjust to "slowing" down life?</p>

2

<p>Classes of 40? That's not small by our standards. Classes here are capped at 30 for high school, 25 for k-8. The high school has about 1,800 students, divided into four small learning communities each with its own dean of curriculum , dean of students and 2-3 GCs. The k-8 schools range from 300 to 500.</p>

3

<p>My children have grown up in a rural town of 1700 people. Their elem school was grades K-6. The philosophy of the school was to have multi-age classrooms (based on philosophy, not numbers). ClassROOM sizes were approx. 15-18 throughout, except K was less. Their graduating class was about 22 students. We loved our elem school. My kids' middle school is a part of the high school. Middle school is grades 7/8 and four elem schools feed into it and high school is grades 9-12 and six elem schools (or two middle schools) feed into it. The middle school had about 80 per grade. The high school has about 150 per grade. I think there are a lot of benefits of going to smaller schools where everyone knows you, etc. Some might say, however, that there were less options available at a school of this size than at a big suburban or city public school. Sometimes I think my kids had it good that their GC for six years knows them very well and I read CCers lamenting that their GC has no idea who their kid is as they have 500 or more students assigned to them. I think my kids' high school classes rarely had more than 20 students in them and often less. In some respects, my kids may have had more EC opportunities because there were much greater chances to make the sports teams and plays, for example, than in a school where hundreds compete for a few slots. </p>

<p>Was growing up in a rural town and attending a small high school detrimental in going to college? NOT AT ALL! I have one kid at Brown who is thriving and excelling and had NO adjustment problem whatsoever. I have another child at NYU who is also thriving and excelling and again, no adjustment problems to a large university, nor to city life. Every kid is different, however. My kids go to college with students from around the country (and world), many who have attended bigger and better known high schools or private prep schools and they more than hold their own among them even if they grew up in a rural area attending a small, unknown public school system.....I can't tell if it is in spite of the fact or maybe because of it...who knows. Every situation is different. </p>

<p>As far as relocating....I grew up in suburbia and went to college and grad school in a city area and then moved to the country after graduation. Yes, life is in a much slower lane here in the country. This lifestyle is not for everyone. We like it and we also feel it was a great place to raise a family. When I was of college age, I liked living in a city, however, as do my children now that they are in college. When we moved here, before they were born, we always felt our children would go off to college out of state and experience another life style and then can choose when they are out of college, where they wish to settle, as they will have experienced both. I feel almost certain that my younger child will settle in NYC, and I am unsure where my older one will settle but I highly doubt it will be where she grew up. But my kids seems happy to have grown up here and enjoy returning.</p>

4

<p>I think she means 10 to 40 kids in the whole grade (a "graduating class" of 10to 40, not in a specific classroom. </p>

<p>My kids attended a huge high school, with all of its pros and cons.</p>

<p>I would carefully look into the academic offerings of a school as small as the one you are considering before making a decision.</p>

5

<p>I went to some tiny schools growing up. Nine in the whole school for fourth and fifth grade. Ten kids in the entire sixth grade. You learn to make friends with whomever is there, including kids who aren't necessarily in your grade. If you're lucky you might get more individual attention. My kids have gone to pretty big schools - 75 to 100 in each grade in elementary school. Six or seven times that in high school. Classes have been anywhere from 15 to 30. With a gifted program and fairly flexible math and reading groups in elementary school and grouping into honors and AP in high school their needs were pretty well met. Our high school tends to let honors classes be a little bigger than those for kids who struggle more in school on the theory that they need less handholding. I don't love the philosophy, but I do agree with them. The big high school (3000+) is divided into smaller learning communities in 9th and 10th grade which are supposed to make it feel smaller. I've got mixed feelings about that. For my older son there was a natural smaller learning community of kids who took AP courses early and often. But there was the opportunity to mix with other kids in music, sports and electives.</p>

<p>My older son really gravitates to kids who are his intellectual peers. I think he might have had a hard time in a smaller school. My younger son has wider interests.</p>

6

<p>The big plus with smaller schools is smaller classes and greater intimacy, but there are drawbacks in terms of sports, music and all performing arts, varied curricular options, number of peers to befriend. Like minded or academic peers are often harder to find in a smaller setting (though not always).</p>

<p>I think it really depends on the kid...some do not do well in such small settings, while others thrive.</p>

7

<p>I can't give you the cite for it, but I know my wife (a high-level state education official, among other things) has told me that the data do not support thinking that small class size is terribly important to educational outcomes after the early years.</p>

<p>My kids would have withered and died at a rural K-12 that small. They really liked having diverse classmates and often meeting new people with new interests at school, and having a full range of challenging class offerings with fairly uniformly good teachers. Also living someplace where there was lots to do. K-12 can be a grind, by the way, if you start at K and go through to 12.</p>

<p>A niece and nephew grew up in rural Massachusetts. They used to wish they lived in Amherst, because that was where there might be something to do. (One of them eventually went to Amherst High School, the other to a small artsy charter school.) Neither would even consider living in the kind of place they grew up, and were desperate to leave by the end of high school.</p>

8

<p>from an educational point of view small towns can have advantages and some real downsides. The upside should be obvious, in the greater sense of community, greater chance to know all the teachers in the school and such.</p>

<p>But the downside is a curriculum with fewer choices and less flexibility. And if your kid does not fit into the local norms, look out.</p>

<p>When I was a kid, we lived in a small town about 50 miles from Chicago (used to joke that it was small enough to put both city limit signs on the same post: you are now entering and leaving...). I knew all the techers in the jr high and the principal quite well. But I also had a deal with the math teacher: ace all the tests and go to the HS library (next door) instead of sitting bored in class. No other options were open or even considered. In the HS, one boy was an absolute star because he was the first NM finalist in school history. He went to a local state college, not even the flagship state U. When we moved to Indianapolis before I started 8th grade, it was a whole different world. My older brother hated his 4000 student megaHS. I loved it. </p>

<p>Now, some rural school districts use technology to address the needs of a diverse range of students, but not all.</p>

9

<p>If "Ivy2B" reflects college aspirations, then it can be a huge disadvantage to be at a high school that is off the radar screen for elite colleges. Being #1 in a class of 40 at Podunk High is not particularly impressive, especially if Podunk High doesn't seem to offer very much in the way of a demanding curriculum. In terms of the educational experience, a small, intimate school setting can be very nurturing and certainly much better than the typical large urban public.... but I just think it would be a drawback for Ivy-level admissions.</p>

10

<p>Calmom, like with anything, there are pros and cons of cming from a well known high school and an unknown Podunk high school (this topic comes up on CC from time to time as you know). My kids went to unknown Podunk high school. Most elite schools likely haven't heard of it. In general, kids here are not striving as a whole to enter the elites. However, a couple of kids do every year and so it is possible to get in. My older D's year, she was the only one to go to an Ivy. Also, the school where she was deferred/denied (Yale) and the school where she was waitlisted (Princeton) haven't taken kids from our school since I can recall. I know that this year, someone in the graduating class is heading to Harvard (won't be the first), another to Brown (again not the first) and one to MIT. So, elites will take kids from unknown high schools, but yeah, it can be harder in some ways because we don't have any "connection" to the elite colleges a la what you read in The Gatekeepers! On the other hand, kids who go to well known suburban public or well known private prep are sort of "competing" with one another for the very same group of colleges. Now, of course MANY get in from those types of high schools. Example, my D's college roomie at Brown went to an elite private day school and 8 kids in her very small class got in EARLY to Brown alone. Compare that to one from our high school who went to any Ivy at all. So, sure, colleges are very willing to take from those kind of high schools. By the same token, there are a slew of very qualified kids at those high schools and colleges do not want a slew of kids all from one high school and so in some ways, that is a con coming from a well known high school. </p>

<p>Personally, we didn't pick our high school. Our kids attended the only game in town and that's fine by me. In my opinion, the colleges accept people. Obviously my kids' high school was not in the plus column in terms of recruitment, LOL, but it didn't hurt them. They ended up at top schools, but more importantly, at one of their first choice schools. They are able to excel at their colleges even if not coming from known high schools. They receive top grades, have received various honors, and have attained leadership positions at their respective colleges. I think colleges know that good students exist at all high schools. My children would be the same people had they attended elite prep school or if they attended our Podunk HS. I feel that colleges accepted them for who they are. We never chose our high school. I personally would NOT choose a high school with college admissions in mind but I have a feeling that many people do. In fact, where I live, some families have sent their children away to elite boarding schools. Well, in my view, if those settings were a better experience for their child, that is very nice. But if their reason to send them was to ensure they got into a "better college," I don't buy it. My kids are going to the same colleges they are anyway. </p>

<p>Our rural public school is nothing to rave about, but my kids got an education just fine. We did have Honors level classes and the kids in those classes are very bright achievers. It simply is that the ENTIRE school is not at that level, as you would find at a better high school. But the top kids at our high school could rival kids at any elite HS. I'm not praising our HS because it was just fair but there were some good aspects and I think my kids were very well prepared for top colleges. I venture to say that after reading zillions of posts on CC for the past five years, that in some ways, I think my kids' writing intensive classes were better preparation then some of the AP test oriented classes I seem to read about on CC at schools in other parts of the country. So, our HS is not on the radar, but its top students are going places and doing well.</p>

11

<p>We relocated from the "fast lane" (Silicon Valley) to a New England small town for a number of reasons. We selected our town with quality of schools paramount. Our town is larger than soozie's (about 8000) but has small town features, including that there is 1 elementary, 1 middle school and 1 high school for the whole town. Excepting the limited amount of in-migration and out-migration over the years, your kids go to school with the same gang for all 12 years.</p>

<p>There are lots of things to consider and discuss about all of this. Our son's elementary class sizes were in the 18-22 range. Ditto for middle school. HS I didn't pay as much attention to class size. I'm not a big believer that class size is all. </p>

<p>But class caliber, school culture - that is ever so important. Ours is a school system where it is not "uncool" to be among the smart kids. Where there is not a disconnect between being in the honors class and being popular, being into athletics or whatever. Where being in the band is not "out", but "in." </p>

<p>Ours is also a school with an excellent track record in college admissions. In a graduating class of 120-135 students, 95%-98% go on to 4-year institutions. Several go each year to HYPSM and about 20% go to either HYPSM or top LACs or other top 20 schools.</p>

<p>With such a small school, the number of AP offerings likely doesn't compete with those of much larger schools (maybe 8-12 total with a typical top student taking 4-8 total). But the emphasis on AP-for-AP-sake is not here. Which is good, imo</p>

<p>Our small town is 10 minutes from a small but cosmopolitan city (culture, restaurants, etc. etc.) and under 2 hours to Boston. That was important to us, but might not be important to everyone. However, it was my "security blanket" when we moved here from Silicon Valley/San Francisco Bay Area. That is what helped me move from the fast lane - knowing that I could be in the Big City in a short time. </p>

<p>OTOH, the advantages of the slow lane are very special. It's trite, but I love hearing the peepers and the bullfrogs, the foghorn (we are near the ocean) and seeing the stars every night. I love that it is not de rigeuer to be driving the latest Hummer/BMW or other luxury vehicle. I love that my kid went to school with the sons and daughters of doctors, lawyers, business executives <em>and</em> farmers, fishermen and carpenters. Our town, due to its geography, is short on racial and ethnic diversity (one of the disadvantages) but long on socio-economic diversity.</p>

<p>I could go on and on (I guess I already have ;) ). But it is not so much the move from big city to small town. It is <em>which</em> big city to <em>which</em> small town. You cannot have it all; but you can choose so that you have a lot. And you certainly do not have to give up quality education or access to top quality colleges. The guidance office at our school (I learned after coming on to cc and seeing what other privates and publics had to offer) was right up there with the very best of the privates and private paid counselors. We were so fortunate in this.</p>

<p>If I had it to do all over again, I would choose no other town and no other schools for my son.</p>

12

<p>Being an "unknown" high school and being unknown to selective college admissions' offices are two entirely different things.</p>

<p>Our hs is not New Trier or Gunn or Thomas Jefferson or Andover or one of the 3 W's.... so it is not "well known." But our hs is a known quantity within the admissions offices of many (perhaps all) the most selective colleges and universities in this country. That is just what high quality high schools make a part of their mission - if their seniors have a focus on selective college admissions - be it HYPSM or other tier 1 schools or top LACS, the guidance offices have made it their mission over the years to know what those colleges are seeking and to cultivate the relationships. And the track record of each kid who enters and succeeds at such schools creates the receptive atmosphere for the next applicants. Our hs has that critical mass of acceptances over the years to create that track record.</p>

<p>As with soozie's kids (whose school may be more of a total unknown to college adcoms than mine) or with, say, curmudgeon's D, it is certainly possible to be uber-successful in college admissions even though your hs itself is unknown. Some students (andison maybe?) suffer from the fact that their hs is <em>too</em> known - and colleges don't want too many from that school or similar schools. So it cuts both ways.</p>

13

<p>I totally agree with JmMom....it can cut both ways. </p>

<p>Like where JMMom lives (I don't know her exact town but I have an idea of the area and have vacationed there quite a bit), our town is very small (smaller than hers, however), but is NOT a typical rural town. We live in a resort area as well. While many here are natives, many others have moved here for the lifestyle and were educated or grew up elsewhere, including ourselves. Like where JMMom lives, our kids did not grow up where there was racial diversity but there is a lot of socio-economic diversity and I rather like that for my kids compared to where so many of their college friends grew up where everyone had it all (and likely expected it all too). My children mix well with very wealthy friends at college but also just as well with those from the lower socio economic scale back home. I'm glad they have known a variety of kids and I am glad that their childhoods were not a competitive atmosphere. When I read about environments such as in The Overachievers, I become grateful that my kids didn't have that in small town America. </p>

<p>And while our HS might not be known to many elite schools, kids can and do get into elite colleges from our HS. Over time, I think regional adcoms will have heard of the high school. It will never be a feeder school, LOL, but as they have taken successful kids in the past, they will continue to do so. No, they don't come and visit our high school but somehow kids still seem to get into top colleges. Top colleges know that there are high achievers and movers and shakers at all sorts of high schools in America, and not just at well known high schools. We just have less kids of this type at our school than the known high schools have, but the high achievers here are no different than anywhere else. </p>

<p>I was thinking about this thread earlier tonight. Not the part about school, however. But the part about small town and big city. Right now, I have one child in NYC and one in Paris but their roots are here and they can mix with anyone. I was at a little barbeque that was a fundraiser for the local ambulance which is all volunteer (as is the fire department). It was held in the village at the little general store, which is also the gas station. Up the street is the covered bridge where the local kids hang out and swim in the river on this very hot day (my own daughter did this very thing when home a few weeks ago from NYC). A bluegrass band was playing. A lot of the folks there were the working class native types.....what many of you would think of as "hicks". My husband and I are well educated professionals but we hobnob with our townfolk just fine. Everyone here mixes. It doesn't matter if you are a doctor, lawyer, architect, or carpenter, farmer, or mechanic. It just is the way it is here. And I thought, geez, this isn't anything like the folks on CC are thinking is a good place to live! :D And then on another night, in my same little town, I saw the opera. And another night, a Sondheim show. Different crowd of folks. But all choose to live here. Also, we have all the second home owners and vacationers. All mix. It's great! Out my window are the gorgeous mountains and greenery. I had a picnic by the brook in the woods on our land with my hubby yesterday. People from around the world come here for vacation and when they ask where I am from, and I say I actually live here, they appear jealous. It is not for all people, that's for sure. But it is a fine upbringing for children. So, as I sat at a picnic table in the village at the country store listening to bluegrass and eating my five dollar barbeque dinner to raise money for the ambulance and then drove home up my dirt road passing by people on horseback, and then stopped to pick daisies as I drove down my long driveway across a big meadow, I thought of this thread!</p>

14

<p>Soozie, keep in mind that your daughters participated in significant activities outside of high school -- a good part of their college admissions success was from their wider accomplishments with EC's. So if a kid wants an Ivy -- and the parent is considering a small rural high school, the parent may need to factor in the cost of subsidizing their kids athletics or summer programs, etc. </p>

<p>My daughter also went well beyond her high school offerings -- so its certainly useful for any kid to do that -- but the point is that she didn't <em>have</em> to -- there are kids who manage to rack up all sorts of great accomplishments and awards just taking advantage of what her urban high school has to offer. That would be tough to do at a very small rural school. </p>

<p>I might be mistaken, but I think Curmudgeon's daughter went to a fairly large high school -- at least big enough to field a state championship girl's basketball team. </p>

<p>At the very least, Ivy2B needs to take a long hard look at what that tiny rural high school offers in the context of the kids interests and likely EC's.</p>

15

<p>"So much depends upon a red wheel barrow
glazed with rainwater beside the white chickens."</p>

<p>--William Carlos Williams</p>

<p>Sorry, I couldn't resist. So much depends upon the goals and needs of the family. In most cases, happy, flexible parents produce offspring who are similar. Obviously, there are many different types of environments that produce success. One kid's pressure cooker is another's exhilarating opportunity. One kid's cozy closeness can be another's stifling boredom.</p>

<p>Ideally, healthy children can adjust and thrive in a variety of settings.</p>

<p>I live on Long Island in a setting that is a small town half way between suburban and exurban. We are far enough east that we escape the cookie cutter developments I detested from my youth. And although the town is quite affluent we do escape the environment of Coach purses (which I don't get.) We can be in a rural farm setting (now morphing into vineyards) in forty-five minutes and NYC in one and a half hours. We live four miles from SUNY Stony Brook and ten miles from Brookhaven National Labs. We can see the water from our house if we goi to the right window, crane our necks and squint. We can definitely hear the fog horn ferry sound as it arrives and departs. Our town has 6000 people. The high school has between 80 and 90 kids per grade, and these same kids were together since pre-K. It is one of the more bizarre attributes of education on Long Island that another school district not that far away has a graduating class of 1,000.</p>

<p>Pros: Kids were not competitive with each other. Neighboring school district is cut throat.</p>

16

<p>"So much depends upon a red wheel barrow
glazed with rainwater beside the white chickens."</p>

<p>--William Carlos Williams</p>

<p>Sorry, I couldn't resist. So much depends upon the goals and needs of the family. In most cases, happy, flexible parents produce offspring who are similar. Obviously, there are many different types of environments that produce success. One kid's pressure cooker is another's exhilarating opportunity. One kid's cozy closeness can be another's stifling boredom.</p>

<p>Ideally, healthy children can adjust and thrive in a variety of settings.</p>

<p>I live on Long Island in a setting that is a small town half way between suburban and exurban. We are far enough east that we escape the cookie cutter developments I detested from my youth. And although the town is quite affluent we do escape the environment of Coach purses (which I don't get.) We can be in a rural farm setting (now morphing into vineyards) in forty-five minutes and NYC in one and a half hours. We live four miles from SUNY Stony Brook and ten miles from Brookhaven National Labs. We can see the water from our house if we goi to the right window, crane our necks and squint. We can definitely hear the fog horn ferry sound as it arrives and departs. Our town has 6000 people. The high school has between 80 and 90 kids per grade, and these same kids were together since pre-K. It is one of the more bizarre attributes of education on Long Island that another school district not that far away has a graduating class of 1,000.</p>

<p>PROS: Kids were not competitive with each other. Neighboring school district is cut throat. Kids sabotage each other. We had none of that. </p>

<p>School was not clique-y. Jocks, musicians, geeks all socialized together. Often one child wore all these hats.</p>

<p>No cut policy for extracurriculars. Kids were needed for sports, plays, academic teams etc. If a kid wanted to do something, she could.</p>

<p>Teachers, guidance counselors etc. knew all kids and their siblings. In terms of elite colleges, recommendations were fabulous.</p>

<p>Academically, a lot was provided even though grade was so small. My sopn took ten AP's, my daughter eight. </p>

<p>Because of university and lab my kids mixed with kids from all over the world, usually brilliant kids whose parents were physicists.</p>

<p>The town and school were intertwined, and kids participated in many town functions. They were also able to walk everwhere they wanted, giving them some independence at a young age.</p>

<p>CONS: These were largely social. Since everyone knew everyone there was never any anonimity. Quarrels (usually among girls) were magnified. Dating was difficult because it felt vaguely incestuous. Son managed anyway; daughter didn't. If kids broke up there was no getting away from their ex.</p>

<p>Other cons: Only one section of French, physics, etc. Scheduling is hard to do and choices sometimes had to be made. Although advanced offerings were numerous, there were no "exotic" offerings: AP statistics, Art History, Music Theory, Psychology, Economics were not offered.</p>

<p>On the other hand, the music program was flexible and excellent so one child did band, chorus, chamber choir and jazz band during school hours (all in slot of one period) and the other did the same substituting orchestra for band. This was possible because the teachers were willing to share the kids.</p>

<p>I would choose this setting again because it made me happy, and I was able to share this contentment with my kids. This was the right level of culture and nature for me. Both were accepted to elie colleges. One went the culture route, and like soozie's daughter will probably never leave NYC. One will go off to as rural a setting as I could imagine next year, and I have no idea where he'll end up.</p>

<p>My daughter said she didn't really feel she had like-minded friends when she was going to school but that she now realizes how close they were. They have alkl gone off on adventures, some international, but they all come back to spend time together. Recently one girl tragically died. They all returned (during finals week) for the wake.</p>

<p>I am pleased with the outcome and feel very privileged and very lucky to have stumbled on a combination that worked for each child.</p>

17

<p>We are 10 minutes from Stony Brook in the opposite direction. The HS had close to 700 in the graduating class and would I am sure fit mythmom's impression as cutthroat. We did not see any advantages in the large high school and there were considerable disadvantages. These advantages and disadvantages might not be what you would expect. Classroom sizes were not larger with generally less than 25-30/classroom. You might expect the larger HS to have more EC and sports opportunities. That was not the case. My D did sports through elementary, middle school and during freshman year at a private HS. When she went to the public HS, she worked very hard to make a team, but found herself on the bench watching while the star athletes played all the games. Getting to and from before and after school activities was also a problem since the HS was a 20-30 minute drive from our house. There were no early buses and the late bus was slow and too early to allow participation in most after school activities. My W spent a lot of time driving at least until senior year when we had to let my D drive to school everyday. Due to the high competition in sports and her relatively limited abilities, my D switched her interests to music. I am not sure if the larger HS provided better opportunities, but I doubt it. Being near Stony Brook was an advantage. As a HS junior and senior, she was able to play with the SBU undergrad orchestra. Although it is not much of an orchestra, she was able to gain some experience and confidence. Being near NYC was also a big advantage. Although her commute was 3+ hours round trip by train and subway, she was able to go into the city on Saturdays for music training.</p>

<p>Based on our experience I would recommend not only considering the size of the HS, but the opportunities available in the surrounding area.</p>

18

<p>I live in a very rural area. My kids went to elementary where the total K-6 enrollment barely topped 100 for the whole school. Would I do it again? No, not to this particular town. The minuses far outweigh the pluses.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>No diversity at all - the elementary has no minorities at all. The high school probably has less than 1%. Most of the kids at the local elementary are from poor families who have no interest in helping their children excel, so class time is geared toward the remedial. I actually ended up homeschooling my kids for a portion of their elementary years based on this fact they could not offer my DD's the more accelerated level of education they needed.</p></li>
<li><p>Having to drive 25+ miles one way to the junior high and high school. Very few children from our town participate in EC's, which means I've put over 250,000 miles on my car driving them to their EC's. </p></li>
<li><p>No teacher choice. The first grade teacher has been there 30+ years... and I don't think her teaching style has changed at all since then. Shoot, we even had a "part time principal" for many years because the district didn't think it was necessary for us to have a full time one. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Our school district is actually the best in our county, especially at the junior high & high school level. But if I could do it over, I would move closer in to town where the kids could have gone to one of the other larger elementaries in the district.</p>

19

<p>Even a big high school may not offer multiple AP sections. Out of 650 in the graduating class - 5 took AP Latin. It was scheduled at the same time as the course that served the five kids taking the post BC Calculus course.</p>

20

<p>In our large well regarded high school, there are no offerings beyond BC Calc, so the kids end up taking multivariable at a college, or being stuck in AP Stats.</p>